Economist Radio - Checks and Balance: Voter confidence

November’s election threatens to be ugly. President Trump’s supporters are clashing with Black Lives Matter protesters in Portland. Covid-19 complicates voting. The result may not be clear on election night. Many Americans worry the election could herald violent discord and a constitutional crisis rather than a smooth exercise of democracy. Should they be concerned? We speak to Myrna Perez of the Brennan Center for Justice and Professor Kathleen Hale, who runs the graduate programme in electio

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Content Keywords: optimist Donald Trump manipulation
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On the 23rd of June Angry Birds just began pounding the glass doors at the Kentucky Exposition Center, Louisville.

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Post the state crime rate at Shoppes at 6 p.m. Will people still trying to enter the building.

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The deuce wild again after one of the Democrats Senate candidates filed an emergency injunction to allow voting to continue.

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Charles Booker a black lives matter supposed to have been warning that one's not polling sites to cope with a high tunnel. And most of Kentucky's African-American voters live in Louisville the Expo Center in the county of 600,000 eligible voters.

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The date for the Kentucky primary President Trump being on his phone, but Dune race 2020 election be treated in capsule that says it will be the Scandal about time.

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With 59 days to go this is checks and balance.

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I'm John prideaux The Economist US senator has a podcast about the 2020 elections each week. We take one big theme shaping American politics and explore it in Death.

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Today will the result be trusted?

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So perhaps the first time in recent American history of peaceful transfer of power is in question.

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Covid-19 is complicating an election system marked by long-running parts and battles ever who's allowed to vote.

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Real wild card is the president himself questioning the validity of the electoral process. Actions from both sides faced off in the streets. Some American cities might be disputed.

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And this episode will get the view from election officials voting rights activists and the back of the last time the US government responded to racial Strife with an effort to boost voter turnout.

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With me to discuss all of this junk Fest Monday, Washington correspondent and Idris coloring the public policy correspondence to begin with an apology to you. For some reason last week. We failed to mention that your way on holiday on the eastern shore of Maryland chasing crabs another delicious things Avalon shift complaints from your fan club on both sides of the Atlantic. Did you have a good time? It was great. It was great. The Highlight was watching my older son's first movie which he wrote and design the costumes for and directed his cousins in on General release. I don't think it would survive a copyright lawsuit from lucasfilm, but it was a very well done piece of art was wonderful. Sounds awesome in a week at F in sourdough. So I will let you know how that goes. Sounds like an interesting experiment.

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More reasons to borrow the normal this year. That's because they're a combination of political challenges and Technical one. Let's begin with the technical problems the coronavirus epidemic throws up a whole list of those but sometimes, we should be worrying about but perhaps we shouldn't I spoke to Amanda Perez the director of the voting rights in elections at the Brennan Center for justice. It's a progressive think tank that among other things. For such and campaigns on whitening boatracs us interfering are people not getting mail ballot applications in time to complete and submit mail ballots. We're worried that there's not going to be enough polling station. So that voters can vote safely and without fear of coronavirus bread. We're worried that there's not going to be enough.

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Coworkers to stack those polling places and we're worried that all of the fake and incendiary and salacious claims of voter fraud or going to make people so disgusted with the political process that they're not interested in participating Santa has contributed to a lot of the research on that you would talk about things like wetterling stations are situated. How many polling stations there are in what kind of districts were talking about ID laws that govern identification vote to scan show when they turn up to cost that that vote those the areas where that can be some manipulation of the rules of the game what you're talking about. I relapsed with that but it but it's slightly different as me and we'll kind of covet specific if you're going to come away the

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Risks in 2020 on voter suppression. How much would you write them towards those things that we've worried about tradition me over the past 10 years or more and how much towards the specific problems that might discourage people from voting in might lead to lower turnout with otherwise be saying is making the voter suppression easier and will compound and exacerbate active voter suppression. And that is because election administrators are under-resourced and dealing with a sea change in how voters are expected to participate in the electoral process in November. Far Congress has been unwilling to provide the resources that are needed to make sure that election administrators meet the moment. My hope is that

00:05:58
The American public is going to make clear in no uncertain terms that their right to vote is fundamental and that they're going to cross whatever hurdles get placed in front of them. But the reality is at many of us are predicting there going to be a lot of glitches on Election Day. This is an election that will probably go down in the history books for things not working. Ideally. I hope that I'm wrong but most importantly I hope that Americans are braced and ready for it. I also think that journalists need to accept that we may not know on Election night who won we have done ourselves as a service that we've gotten used to finding out who wins on Election night. And I think there are a lot of very good Provo two reasons why that doesn't have to be the case and I hope that Americans are braced for not knowing

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Okay note to self do not expect a play results on Election night. Jon. Fasman How likely do you think the scenario is that some people have painted that because of an increase in postal voting you can have a situation on Election night. We're in some of the key swing state of Florida passes, Michigan Donald Trump with his to be ahead of the night and then asthma postal votes counted Joe Biden catches up creating a set amount of confusion on Election night with a lot of Americans used to having the Network's cool the result for one side or another. I think we need to be prepared for that for two reasons. Number one is a large Delta between the sheriff Donald Trump's voters expected vote by mail and Joe Biden so about half of buying voter say they plan to vote by mail. We're only one and five of trump scotus do that means a lot of 5 voters will have sent in their ballots by mail in a lot of States. You're not allowed to start processing them until election day, which means they'll be spending a long time counting. The other phenomenon is

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The blue Chef the phrase of the creation of Edward Foley who noticed that over the course of the night votes tend to shift toward Democrats are reasons that aren't well understood, right? It could be that Democrats tend to be concentrated in urban Precinct switch take longer to count than Rome or sparsely populated Republican ones. It could be the Democrats also tend to make heavy use of provisional ballots because they are more trans sent their students they live in cities and move more often. But for whatever reason there tends to be a shift toward Democrats as the night goes on and I think the risk there is that on Election night. If Trump appears to be winning he made call for a halt in ballot counting everything that's coming late is fraudulent something like that and as president's it may be more than just a Twitter admonition. He may actually try to pressure state election board sectors of state to stop accounting already we've seen in a bunch of the primaries have been conducted that the results came out late. They were delayed you had New York City right where a bunch of those ballots weren't even counted a lot worse.

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And I know that I've been reading about Pennsylvania is looking at making sure that they don't have a repeat of their delayed count in cities like Philadelphia. It seems like they've been a few dry runs in the time of covid-19 election and they have it all gone that smoothly so who knows what it'll look like when you have every state every County trying to do this even with a couple of extra month seems like I didn't help that much for the ones that were held in the summer. So maybe it'll be just as chaotic in the fall and designs from the campaign's judging by the number of lawsuits. They filed over 200 covid-19 election lawsuits already filed in 43 states that they getting ready to challenge every small detail of how this election is organized sides are filling out their ranks of lawyers. This is going to feel to a lot of people of a certain age like 2,000 when there was an extended Court battle over one state which is Florida something like that could happen in

00:09:58
Multiple States, I mean we're talking about huge increases in mail ballot volumes, which requires time and requires people to count them. I spoke with past few weeks with Michigan Secretary of State and that office couple of times. They are expecting 65 to 70% of their ballots to be cast by mail that's up from 24% in 2018. And that rate in 2018 is higher than a lot of the places like Wisconsin in North Carolina had single-digit mail-in ballots in in 2016 and 2018. I mean, it's just the last four states to cope with and they're doing it under tremendous pressure. I wonder does the risk that you know, many Republicans don't accept the results of election or that there's an extended waiting. Before we know the results doesn't go down if Biden has a reasonably large Victory as right now, you know, he's leading by seven or eight points in the polls that translates into a pretty large Electoral College margin might it be so big that some of these

00:10:58
He's just become less Salient. I watch a night I tend to agree with you on that it dries. I mean if the polls are correct now, I mean, you can't extrapolate pose now the beginning of September to election day. Maybe they'll be wrong maybe things will change between now and November 3rd. So heavily copy asking that but but say the polls turned out to be in it where they are now and election day that would be abiding Landslide frankly. And in that case, I think that some of the problems we're anticipating, you know, they might still be that but that's the matter less. I think I could become really difficult in this election is it it's much closer in the post currently suggest it will be and then it's really worth both sides fighting over every lost votes and I need to get superlative. Just do you think that's right. That's what you think. You know, whatever the result is. We're in for a very long night on November 3rd. I don't know Florida lawsuits.

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Play the election was stolen from him. I think that's playing becomes less credible. If fighting pulls off, you know, a result commensurate with an 8-point National lead in the polls, which means he is probably winning Florida on the night. He's probably ahead and a lot of Swing States and I think it looks like that sort of night. Then the claims of fraud just become hard to sustain. I think if there's no winner on Election night or Donald Trump has had an election night and it looks like a squeaker then things could turn really ugly not just Court battles, but you'll have people on the street you'll have the president sewing dad about the results. It could be a really Rocky. Okay, thanks, but we'll talk a little bit more about what that could look like later in this podcast. And then the moment we'll get back to the 1980s and the lost big effort to boost post turn out the first to use a reminder. If you're not an economist subscriber, you should be it's really easy to sign up. You'll find the best offer by heading to economist.com 2020 election called the cover story in this week's paper is due.

00:12:58
Fox news briefing explaining things that might just go wrong in November and there's also a lovely piece on British dog walkers that link for special rate on a new subscription is economist.com 2020 election poll. You'll find it in the notes for this episode on your podcast app.

00:13:23
One way to measure competence in the Democratic process is by voter turnout about 60% of eligible Americans voted in the last presidential election That's Not Great by global standards over a hundred million Americans declined to exercise their right to pick the president on current trajectories people who vote will soon be outnumbered by Amazon Prime subscribers.

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It was the golden age for daytime TV when voter turnout hit an all-time low in September 1986 the Oprah Winfrey Show ratings hit Chicago was Brookhurst Across America 2018 how to marry the man or woman of your choice turnout in the midterm elections two months later was a miserable 37%

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Couch Potato culture got some of the blame for voter apathy problems with America's election system. The 1965 Voting Rights. Act was supposed to play with measures designed to exclude black voters it became apparent that right was still being curtailed a campaign begun to make registering to vote easier to strip clubs to go see between marginalised photos on The Ballot Box Bunny place that deliberately

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The Democrats been dominant in Congress. That is the proposals President George HW Bush voter registration bill passed by the Senate and House The veto did he said it would mean an open door to fraud in US elections. The pressure wasn't letting up.

00:15:06
In 1992 the meat from the electrical outlet the strange race relations payment Focus not guilty of the crime of assault likely to produce great bodily injury right sweat Los Angeles when police officers go to Handycam footage beating a young black man killed Rodney King were acquitted shark quickly and anger.

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It is the right of every American to vote. It is also the responsibility of every American to vote off to Bill Clinton defeated Bush a red lost for an incumbent president. The way was clear for the national voter registration act. It became known as the Motor Voter law people could register to vote while getting a driver's license. It was on the sidelines of our democracy. And now with Motor Voter there will be fewer and fewer excuses for anyone to do so, the goal was to expand registration for Americans underrepresented of the poles not just minorities, but also disabled people and young people. The king

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Freedom of speech is as good as sex musicians to persuade people to sign up the pop icon Madonna. I'm not much else has nothing to it. And if you don't vote you're going to get a Spanky when he signed the bill every year from now on we're going to have more registered voters and more people voting. We're going to make the system work the law empowers us to do it. It's now up to us to assume the responsibility to see that it gets done. Thank you very much.

00:16:54
On the surface. It was a huge success by the time of the next presidential election 20 million more Americans had registered already registered to vote but won the 1996 election came around realtor not was lower than ever fear than half of eligible Americans voted at all. It was a stark reminder that it's not enough to get people to vote. You also have to give him something to vote fool.

00:17:22
Define our nation on a precipice to Tipping Point three decades after she first took over at American TV. That's something Oprah Winfrey understands more than most. She's putting the economist cable network behind a bold new get-out-the-vote efforts and no friends are employees paid time off on Election Day. That is what we need dext action.

00:17:54
Increase I just want to pull is on this question of voter suppression for a moment because I think we can all agree everybody ought to be able to create at least that in a democracy you want to make it as easy as possible for the maximum number of people the boat and that in some sense. You can measure the health of democracy by turn out so voter suppression in the normative sense is bad. I find it at least really hard to figure out how much of it actually goes on because you're trying to measure negative right? You're trying to work out how many people didn't do a thing re-vote because of attempts to suppress the vote. How do you go about thinking about voter suppression? And how do you think about trying to measure the effect it has on the outcome of Elections? This is a pretty important question. The thing that you're trying to consider is the counterfactual right how many people would have voted had there not been a voter ID law in place, which is the kinds of things that people think of when they think of voter suppression in the modern day and in those cases for all the attention it's been focused on

00:18:54
Diamond political scientist look at what actually happens to turnout rates what actually happens to vote shares after States put in these letter ID laws that actually find pretty mixed effect. So they can't really detect much of a difference on boat shares. I think it's important to remember that sometimes we forget that ever since 1965 and the efforts legislatively to make sure that African Americans actually had the right to vote for a long time. Of course, they were excluded by force from being able to vote that ever since then they've rapidly converged with white turnout rates and it back in 2008 in 2012. Black turnout was actually higher than white turn on the racial groups that actually vote much less than either black or white Americans are Hispanics and Asians. I say that because a lot of the focus of reporting and I think as it should be is on African Americans without IDs lacking access to vote so far the political science on what the effects has been is somewhat minimal John.

00:19:54
Really interesting facts in your briefing this week, but one of them that really jumped out at me. Was that the bipartisan policy Center which is a reputable Think Tank found that in 2016 560,000 photos failed to cast a vote because of problems at polling places. That's a big number what me read about problems like this in American election Administration to what extent generally what you say that down to cook UPS on administrative Bailey has Nevada zip lining attempts to put people off voting. Well, I think it's hard to disentangle those two motives and to some extent. It doesn't much matter right? It's much more productive to just look at what has actually happened of the voters that have to wait in long lines a disproportionate. Share of them are African-American or Latino the leadership conference on civil rights found its since Shelby County V holder, which is the Supreme Court case that eliminated the requirement that your addictions with the history of discrimination Pre-K.

00:20:54
And you left some changes with the justice department since that really in 2013 there been about 1,700 polling place closures in jurisdictions formerly subject to preclearance.

00:21:05
Those poly pipes that are also in heavily minority districts. So is there a nefarious intent is it just administrative screw-ups doesn't really matter the burden of these administrative screw-ups if that's what they were still Falls heaviest on non-white voters that points to another aspect of voter suppression, which is not just keeping people away from the polls but discouraging them through long lines through burdensome ID requirements true closing polling places or is Russia was doing by targeting ads designed to sew cynicism about the system. So voter suppression isn't just forcibly keeping people away. It is also sort of discourage to them and trying to sell them on the Democratic process was on my mind as we have to discussion, which is that and Joan alluded to it that with reference to the Russian attempts to influence the election in 2016 that is referred to as we have a duty to talk about look at report on problems that might occur and in November 8th at the same time. You don't want to go around so the so

00:22:05
Mistrust in giving the impression that the whole system is a total disaster and I know it's not going to be fat because that then undermines you no faith in the system in a way. That's really unhelpful. So I how do you think about the weighing out those competing imperatives? Yeah, I think of myself is maybe not a skeptic on on some of these things but a bit more of a realist. So I'm the Russian disinformation side. For example, I think reporters have a duty to try to call out this and and report about this event. Right? I mean it's a sort of extraordinary that another nation state is affecting the American election now the mistake that I think we sometimes make his reporters is in inferring that because Russia has sought to interfere in the election that it has done so meaningfully and you know, if you look at sort of the spending size of the Facebook ads in Russia did and in 2016, for example, and you compare that to the mountain of hundreds of millions billions of dollars that are spent on Camp.

00:23:05
Finance to influence voters it anyway, you would have to think that the Russian disinformation was so uniquely effects or ten thousand times more effective like move polls in the way that sometimes people think that I'm not saying that don't report on this cuz it's extraordinary right and you need to talk about this and the Russian should be doing this and ditto for the arrangements are the Chinese who might be attempting to influence elections this time as well. But the existence of this problem doesn't mean that the problem is sort of corroding American democracy on the whole I think similarly with some of the voting problems that that we see I think it's you know, any person who is deprived of the right to vote because I had to wait in line for 8 hours is the travesty and reporter should go there and should write about those things. It can also be true that on the whole the median voters would have not affected by one of these things and I'm not saying that we shouldn't ignore those outrageous cases because they are outrageous, but it's important. Also I think to kind of keep in mind on what the date.

00:24:05
To say about all of these things and I think that they're the record is a little bit mixed.

00:24:11
Okay, thanks both will hear from someone who knows more than pretty much anyone about how to hold an election in just a moment.

00:24:27
Much of the alarm about how ugly this election could get relates to the toxic political atmosphere. The Trump presidency has brought by a thousand separate Electro jurisdictions Across America to have to hold that she trains and certifies election officials across the country the decision-makers about those policy decisions Orr not by and large not the administrators who executes them and I say that knowing and wanting to be clear and putting it out there that a decent proportion of the local election in the United States.

00:25:27
I so they're extremely I work with thousands of them. I can't sell you one who has ever said anything other than I would just like to know what the rules are and be able to accurately that magnifies the possibility of fruit. What's the evidence about few? No scientific study that I'm aware of the election office has been used for quite a long time including this is a method for facilitating brought you that if you have a big increase in voting by mail for the November elections, which looks likely at the moment.

00:26:27
Also likely that that will delay the counts on Election night and the we might because of the changes in the process be less likely that's what type of hair results on the election I'd do you think that's the case we'll just does it just depend entirely on what the likely margin of Victory is right beside my favorite topic the idea that we've ever had the actual phone at the polls close or even at the end of the accounting within the precincts are within the post-fight. We would disenfranchise doors. We have not balance that are still coming in. By State law can be counted at any variety of the number of times if I could wave a wand it would be that we would think about having legitimate.

00:27:27
Verifiable accurate election results if we were to go back and look at previous large elections, the certification. In some states are three or four weeks. So the actual final results this simply can't be numb everybody loves. I'm right there with us watching three different TVs and scrolling through my phone and trying to you know, look at the prediction, but that's all they are respect to all of the we call them election results, but we probably shouldn't because it creates the impression then that anything that happens after that day or that next morning as if somehow suspect areas talk about risks to how the vote might go because whilst you want to point out.

00:28:27
What the result of what might go wrong. You also don't want to be in the business of undermining faith in the electoral process because that's counterproductive, right? You said earlier that you're an optimist about this whole system. Why why you not missed I've spent years working with the people who do this work and their commitment to public service and their dedication to following process. Whatever. It is following the process correctly and their ethical code. If you will about being accurate regardless of party is impeccable.

00:29:10
John iPhone Kathleen's assurances that heartening Assurance is particular about local election administrators. I mean, you might imagine looking inside while you have 67 counties in each County elects an election supervisor on deposits on slaves are these elections are administered by people who are elected as Republicans and Democrats and they then have to be the referee East you might think looking at such a system that it was in a really open on the on the ground level two parts and buy a spit but she says that that's not the case. I spoke to election officials in about every state but probably well over half they were elected for the most part as Democrats or Republicans, but they all were they all felt it was important to maintain public confidence in the process. We think of democracy as way of choosing winners, but it may be more useful to think of it as a way of producing satisfied losers that

00:30:10
You have to have confidence in the process and the candidate who loses must have confidence and must project confidence that he or she lost fairly. I think that's what makes this election. So concerning is it Donald Trump has a real problem admitting anything has ever gone wrong for him. And when you have a president who is not prepared to gracefully accept defeat and is prepared to use the Machinery of the state to maintain his power things really could break down and because Americans generally don't wait until early December for the results, you know, they don't wait until California has council is balanced that process of creating result that everybody can accept to some extent is the job of the TV networks on the nitrite in the AP people who come up with credible projections before the full results. Is it in a much to the dismay of Kathleen and some election officials were still doing that counts as projections, even though necessarily partial have tended to be accurate in the past.

00:31:10
Yeah, I can't think of a time when the AP call has been Incorrect and you know, it makes sense that the instantaneous projections are actually pretty good because you know, the Electoral College votes are apportioned according to the majority winner in each state. You don't need to wait for California to count all the ballots to know that the Democrat won. In fact, we can probably say that right now like body has won all 55 electoral votes, right? Maybe I'm giving her a hard time. I say that there is a reason that we use the projections and there's a reason that we are not accustomed to this sort of authoritarian Shuffle towards think I'll bet that you might see you and countries in Latin America. The boats are coming intent to resemble the votes that have already been cast The Boat shares my shift a little but probably not enough to actually flip the results unless it's right of the knife's edge at which case the AP or these kinds of people will just delay a call. So maybe I'm I'm just speaking too much in defensive of journalists, but I do think that any of the system has worked.

00:32:10
Simply well so far. The system to is that the candidates have to wait until the Network's until AP have made those projections before declaring Victory or missing lost. There's some real reasons to doubt that Donald Trump would do that this time around noon and the midterms in Florida in 2018. He put out a tweet saying election officials in Florida should start counting the votes because the Republican candidates of what I had and I think he was worried that has more votes are counted the Democrats might get a little bit closer and he just said stop counting the votes, you know any more of those to come in or just I just froze there is some strong reason to worry that we might see some Excedrin election night before AP before CNN Fox MSNBC election. President Trump says, we need stop pouncing I declare victory that is a concern ironically. I think one bulwark against people taking that seriously is President Trump himself and his

00:33:10
Habit that we become used to love him just saying crazy stuff on Twitter and people essentially brushing it off. So I think that if he comes out and declares victory at you know, 7 p.m. On Election night, it's alarming and he shouldn't do that and a president shouldn't do that, but I'm not sure that a lot of people other than people who work for him or hardcore partisans will take him. Seriously. I think the institutional guard rails that American democracy has an eye on things like elections are reasonably strong and I'm sure Trump will say we saw in the last election that he won and he still claimed there was massive voter fraud. I'm sure that in this time, you know, regardless the outcome, even if it's victory and he will claim the same but I struggle to see how that might actually change the mechanics info counting in these sorts of things because fine large there Ron buy decent people who try to uphold the law I think both ways right there.

00:34:10
Fair number of Democrats who if Donald Trump wins will claim the election was somehow stolen through voter suppression through Russian hacking and so in a sense the fact that we're even having this conversation is a victory for adversaries who wants to sow doubt in America about democracy in about the sanctity of the process, whatever happens in any election. There's always a winner who feels good and always a loser who feels bad as to their supporters. I think in this case the sheer steaks at the election in the fever pitch of America over the last four years make those emotions heightened go again, that's another reason to be concerned whatever happens on Election night. I worry that there is a twisted rationality for either side fear-mongering about the election being stolen. It's a really good way to get your base to turn out because you're worried that unless you go unless you cast your vote whether by boat or whether by mail or in person that your boat won't be counted while that might be good to get in your base out. It's obviously

00:35:10
Corrosive to the Democracy large, but I worry that both sides of seeing the appeal of that sort of arguments and sort of the forces of negative partisanship there already so bad in this country will probably only get worse if you start to think as I think a lot of Americans already do that, the other side is willing to cheat and flout the law in order to ensure that they will win. Yeah, I agree with that. I've won I know it's a couple of months away, but I'm going to be watching Fox on Election night because the fox is opinion team the Tucker Carlson Sean Hannity's those folks oil in for President Trump the past four years. She has a pretty good election night date reparation know that well respected when it comes to their own election projection and in some sense is given that the Network's now have two important role in America's Unwritten Constitution and cooling the election on Election night long before all the votes read that the people in that fox beta team the fuck scriven of Elliot.

00:36:10
Morris will have this way to your responsibilities you potentially and I feel like some guys the way the polls say well at the moment breaking to Sean Hannity and Tucker Carlson that the guy they've been cheating for the past four years hasn't won the election and if it happens that will be pretty intriguing thing to watch in real time before I let you both go. There's a quiz. I know Charlotte who's on vacation this week would really be missing. This will probably be answering the questions at home was listening before either of you gets them. Okay? Let's begin.

00:36:41
Bissell comes from the era that was way before your time at 3. So I'm fastman would have the edge hair. We going back to Madonna Zephyr to rock the boat, which could attach my Lexington columnist in November 1990. The column notes at the Popstar was part of a Phalanx of celebrities back in the Democrats excited just to counter-examples to notably chiseled Hollywood Republicans. Can you name them Arnold Schwarzenegger got to be one of them and Chuck Norris Warren Beatty. It definitely would have got a long time the president of the NRA Aztec participant at Republican convention on he was elected governor of California back in 2003 Charlton Heston had been in Antigua Democrats in the 1960s. Why he switched parties to sport Ronald Reagan you replied I didn't change the Democratic party changed every Democrat.

00:37:41
the endorsement of which other anti-war actor

00:37:46
Jane Fonda

00:37:50
Jane Fonda's correct. She was photographed sitting on a North Vietnamese anti-aircraft gun when she visited Hanalei 1972 to protest the war and nicknamed Hanoi Jane as a result. She sent set the photo it was a huge mistake.

00:38:08
All right. Thank you. John. Thank you. It dries. They said thanks so much.

00:38:13
Not to laugh my ass. If you like the podcast, please tell people to listen leave a rating and review in the usual places. Thanks to all of you who emailed us at Radio at economist.com one particularly astute correspondent spotted my holiday brain confused Michael Flynn CV last week. He was the president's National Security advisor, which goes isn't the same thing as the Director of the National Security Agency and apologies. Let's find American see where can the NSA keep sending the feedback, please in the meantime, thank you very much for listening. Stay safe. Stay sane will have more checks and balance next week.
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