Deep Dive from The Japan Times - 64: The end of Shinzo Abe: What will Abe's legacy be?

We’re joined by Tobias Harris, author of “The Iconoclast,” a biography of Shinzo Abe. Harris gives his take on Abe’s legacy, examining everything from his foreign policy to the missed opportunities. Also on the show is Wakako Fukuda, one of the cofounders of the activist group SEALDs, who led some of Japan's biggest protests since the 1960s against Abe’s proposed changes to security laws in 2015. She’ll be talking about why so many people joined SEALDs and what she hopes a future PM will do to

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Hello Kitty toys in a second episode looking at the end of shins are always time is prime minister of Japan this week will be looking at La Bistecca see or hear from one of the co-founders of the activist group of seals who let some of the biggest protests Japan has seen since the 1960s against obvious proposed changes to security laws back in 2015. Should we talking about why so many people join seals what that meant meant to do in Japan as well as what she hopes the future Prime Minister will do to help support women hair the first we continue our conversation with Shinto Ave biographer to buy to hear his thoughts on the legacy of Japan's longest serving prime minister.

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Tobias Harris, welcome back to Deep dive. Thank you. Thank you for having me. I want to try and focus this discussion around a particular quote in your book. You wrote Ave was determined to be the strong leader of a competent country eager to regain its rightful place as a wild leader not the prime minister of a demoralized Nation resigned to study to climb. So what were the main things he did to try and chief. Consummation. What's the difference after he came back in 2012 vs 2006 2007 of assets. He had learned to appreciate where economics how to fit in an in a vision of a strong Nation X Newfound appreciation of Economics come from your voters care most about pocketbook issues and he did learn that he had to have an answer to that but he didn't just do that. If it was me. He really hasn't came to think about what could economic policy

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Do as part of a broader agenda of building a strong New Japan and the key to that was his discovery of reflection or economics in this idea that the reason why Japan has struggled for so long to turn things around was that deflation? And why do you have to play Shin because you're so sensitive people are pessimistic. They assume that there are three growth prospects weather because of demographics or whether you're just because they see that all prices are going down. Now they're going to keep going down. There are going to be investment opportunities people are going to spend so I'm just not going to spend. I'm not you I'm going to hold onto my money and your he had to tell in with a group of Economist would emphasize this for a long time and are they grabbed onto this as as fitting in with his broader agenda? So that's the difference in 2012 and you know, they're going to get gross going and how did I need to know like Five Guys to him?

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Isn't that it was as much an exercise in showing the Japanese people showing investors showing the world that your Japan was not out of ideas without out of energy and maybe that's why I miss you so much of it also was was salesmanship you're traveling the world and giving speeches you about what he was trying to do and convincing people that you finally had a government that was taken to the problem seriously and that had the political strength to do it and had the right people in the right ideas him and was going to do something differently idea of your day is as much about changing mindsets. I mean, it permeates the whole abenomics program. But it also I think for me it's obvious whole agenda this whole approach to governing you're trying to convince the Japanese people that faced the power was in their hands the power of positive thinking that it was up to them to work hard and they could make Japan.

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Strong admired country. So you think that I pay came to believe that a stable and growing economy was essential to achieving the rest of his agenda. I do want to focus on something you said there about him redefining the Japanese psyche or identity because one of the criticisms of ABBA is that he is a nationalist and that's well as a historical revision is specially when it comes to the issue of comfort women in South Korea and Japan's role during World War II.

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That they're not to deny that he's a nationalist because I think he checks the boxes on nationalism. But actually in some ways that the most important thing about him is a politician is that he's a state that he was focused on building the Japanese State using the Japanese state to you to lead the way I mean of Court being but he is of course a national do you think there is something special about Japan the Japanese people the start of essential Japan and I-44 Ave and I think conservatives liked him. Look at the Imperial household. This idea of the Imperial household vs. Unbroken line you going back thousands of years as your embodying the essence of the Japanese nation of you right about this throughout his career. This has been a team he's come back to of course, he does believe in the specialness of Japan the uniqueness of Japan but you as a politician and turn

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2012 I mean his Focus was not about me or what can we do to make make sure the entire world knows discussion list of Japan the focus was what do we do to ensure that near Japan the nation of Japan is safe and secure and increase the volatile turbulent region in world government and how I met with the tenant to credit stronger Japanese state so that he could carry out many of his policy objectives. I think that's something to pull them because transferring the state is definitely something that is going to lost him as a prime minister. So what was some of the changes to the state that he managed to an ox during his time in office 25 or 30 years of reforms that were geared towards centralizing power that in the Premiership expensive the bureaucracy and add expense of the ruling party, but for most of that time

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The Run Part of the ldp ensure that backbenchers in in the diet. We're not able to undermine the will and the capabilities of the Prime Minister to set National policy that process is going on for a long time you seen that the study collection of power in the prime minister's office. And so he inherited a lot of that but in the first two or so years in office, he put a couple of final pieces in place that they're really made a difference in your you talked to Japanese bureaucrats and then they'll confirm this and what a some of the examples of these changes most importantly they created a cabinet Personnel Bureau and basically meant that the Prime Minister and chief cabinet Secretary of the political leadership of the government would have the power to pick roughly of the 600 or so senior-most bureaucrats across the government's own every Ministry and you

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Would be it would be there formal appointment power on what did that let him do that. He will free his promises before him couldn't do it your all of the Jerk Hut shut the government. If you wanted to get ahead you would have to have a good reputation in and have good marks in the eyes of the political leaders of the country. And and I think the impact was felt very early on and they used it and they ever and actually it's enforced mentioning at this point to that your womenomics you and promotion of women on their policies to create new opportunities for women in the workforce a decidedly mixed record, but one area where you did see change and it was an area which they had Direct rollover and that was women in the National Geography. They use that power to pursue that agenda and I think they deserve credit for that, but that didn't make sense.

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And I even bought he was speaking about raising more women into leadership positions. He often only had one or two female cabinet ministers out of a cabinet of 20 as an institution needs to do more to recruit female candidates is the only way you're going to get female cabinet ministers and a female prime ministers. If you have a significant number of email backbenchers who are rising the ranks in in competing for this position. So there's a lot of work to be done in that front. There's no question but in the bureaucracy of self and me to take the Japanese bureaucracy now looks different now that it didn't and you look at who's been taking the entrance exams. It's a more female heavy bureaucracies than it was in 2012 that that change creating a personal Bureau de change the incentives that bureaucrats across the government face and it enabled the other government to impose its will not a hundred percent.

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Does mutant mean they never faced resistance in The Rocker C. But it was more coherent National policy-making then you would seem before and and that was was an extremely important chain.

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Hey, you did listen to I'm going to break the fourth wall head and address you directly in editing this interview. I realized that a novice follow-up question on the basis points. He would have been to ask what the dangers are of so much power being centralized in the hands of the Prime Minister and whether that contributed to the freaking scandals that got in his time in office. I didn't ask in an interview, but by his book The iconoclast has much more on the topic. If you are interested in ordering a copy big godlessness can get 25% off if they order through the first website and instructions are in the episode notes, and now every time I message from our sponsors,

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This episode of Deep dive is brought to you by our conferences Democrats abroad Democrat is a volunteer organization that helps American Diabetes register to vote in case you forgot the mail and pretty slightly absentee ballots will go out, September 19th, and if you haven't requested you about it yet for the November election. You should do that right now Democrats the world have a simple website to generate the phone. To request your palette from overseas regardless of your political party. Just go to vote from abroad. Org generate the phone print it sign it and send it to your local election official. It's really simple as that generate the application print it sign it and send it and you'll have requested your ballot vote from abroad. Org makes the ballot request process symplex easy. So if you need to buy from overseas, just go to vote from abroad. Org that link will be in the Senate. Thank you.

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One of the things that was present throughout all the time in office was his desire to change article 9 of Japan's constitution in which Japan renounces war on the use of force to settle international disputes. He didn't ask to do that. But in 2015, he did manage to expand their email to self defense for so that it could in certain circumstances come to the Allies 8 allow. Yes, they have to play a more active role ever sees. He spent a lot of political cartoonist and it caused some of the biggest protests over his career with tens of thousands out on the streets cooling fan to resign. How is that supposed to change cat in Pocket from Japan going forward? I mean for starters if I think it's here to stay, you know, there's been this debate among the opposition parties about whether they should call for your rolling a back here or repealing the National Security laws in 2015 and changing the reinterpreted because for some back yeah. I don't know if there's any appetite for undoing that I think it would be tremendously just dropped it in many ways.

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Jennifer relations with the United States but you do write in your book that this was a particular point for Japanese democracy. I'm the obvious 10 years prime minister in 2015 were not a high moment probably in a lot of ways and his government I don't think sold the changes all that well for the opposition to govern Bixby talk past each other and the opposition. I think Ray's Place of worst-case scenarios and the government raised some hypothetical scenarios. That didn't seem pretty creature made to the debate. It was it was just not the best timing for for Japan's democracy, but you're now that those existed me that you and I think there's some question, you know, if there's a crisis will Japan be a rush to its allies age older sister still room for the showroom from political discussion a minute think that's maybe the most important thing to take away. I mean, it does not obligate you pan to get run off and enjoying a

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Or in the Middle East has a mortgage to question is if there was a crisis in his neighborhood and the US were involved. You know, how could you can not be involved in the kinds of roles that the interpretation and visited envisage in the The Nest security lost visitors. And so let me know that really is the test and if they're going to sue the crisis in these trying to see your car or on the Korean Peninsula what sort of role Japan into playing but that's going to depend on who the political leaders are at the time. I think not quite neatly news is on too obvious foreign policy agenda because u e Wright extensively about the senior book and he has had to play this annuity difficult sounding juggling acts between the US Russia China and and other Regional pops up to South Korea and you know it

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Eva looming presence of North Korea. How do you think our baby will be remembered in terms of his his foreign policy agenda in making three different ways. So the first day we called the relationship building and and I think in a number of ways this was where he was most successful. Is it the Japan India relationship is I think it's a whole other level and part of that was that he had this your personal rapport with Modi but a large part of it is just that there is a take a very close strategic alignment and end view in both both governments, both business communities and both the Armed Forces of both countries that their interests are aligned and I think you've seen progress on all of those fronts to bring the two countries closer together again this time, it's hard to see that progress faltering Ave. Put a lot of effort into

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Spintires with Australia, I'm going to see if that will continue and the end Outlast him. Asean year was a major Focus for all these efforts starting with his first year when he went to every asean country over the course that year and if that's going to continue. So you've seen your tremendous investment of time and attention by the Prime Minister another senior heaters, and of course also actual physical investment of capital in many places across the region. To counter China's influence and the model I think I've made of your Japan being present in all of that I think is going to outlast relationship-building is the first bucket of ABBA is from post agenda. What was the second until you're the Obama years the Trump yours and there's a certain logic to that but

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The underlying goal was the same throughout and that is from the very beginning that there was a recognition on a bass part and people around all day was that Japan really has no alternative to ensuring its Security in the Asia increasingly powerful actor done for the United States to be engaged in the region politically economically and militarily and that of course means as Japan to Ally and security guarantor there during the Obama years and I think Japan positioned itself as you are a critical pillar of the Obama administration's rebalance age of strategy was committed to that and so I think there were enough people in both government, even though in the first year you had a lot of tension over know what are they plan to do about your history of historical memory in and what implications that might have for its relationship neighbor.

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After your after he goes to Yasukuni December 2013 a minute. Seuss a real commitment in both administrations to try to move past those issues and to focus on the shared she took interest and did they got a lot done. I mean by 2016. I think you could save the relationship between the u.s. And Japan was the strongest as it was as it ever had then and then you get the transition from Obama to Trump and you have a r u s presidents who made no secret for a long time of his hostility to u.s. Alliances with countries like Japan and Europe and I think had reason to fear during the 2016 campaign you of what a truck in this reaction might mend and sew in pursuit of this goal of we have to make sure the u.s. Is still engaged in the region you are they made this gamble on a close relationship with Trump that you would invest in this personal ties in bunch of Trump Tower right after the election and it was the visitor your first visitor at Mar-A-Lago in 2017. They played 27 or 27 holes of golf.

00:18:10
Play golf multiple times since I mean all of that you serve a strategic purpose.

00:18:17
But it does seem like every the coast of the Trump presidency a little bit wet put into strengthening diplomatic ties and Asia during the Obama era is being I'm done Japan's relationship with South Korea are in the Ponte pants you to give it to closer ties with China but this year there seemed to disintegrate it as well. So even if that was progress in some areas much of the last part of his time in office seems to be in a step backward. Yes, sir. That's the third bucket till you've had your Sofia relationship building across the indo-pacific so to speak and then the Otis effort to keep the US engage the region and then finally at your you had what is effort to solve the settling the accounts of of post-war diplomacy is what he called it when he was running for his third term Zelda cheerleader in 2018 near that sees big long-standing challenges that has defied previous efforts to solve them in your most notably the lack of a territorial

00:19:17
Minted peace treaty with Russia the outstanding issues about the status of abductees North Korea and trying to find this out that issue and I think maybe also with that was a you want to attempt to find a durable constructive relationship with China and India that effort. I think a lot of his attention post 2016 and you're all of those projects at you as are bay leaves office to focus with North Korea went nowhere with Russia. He offered concession after concession and Putin took their concessions and offered virtually nothing in exchange and ends at a more stable relationship with China to take it been totally offended by the events of this year. And one of the biggest question going forward is is that whether there's anything as successor can do to change that direction and of course

00:20:17
Top of all those issues after 2018 relations with South Korea are as bad as they've ever been given this effort to Rally the reaches of democracies to counter China's influence in into balance against China USA get stronger and is it is it you're not only against militarily stronger because it promotes a new model of authoritarianism. It is hard to believe that Japan will have much success in that approach. If you can't find a way to include one of the Region's most successful democracies in the effort.

00:20:59
Erasing a recent call him for the Japan times the Ave seemed reluctant to use his political Capital to do with long-term challenges. And I think that's a very interesting Point Reyes when looking at his legacy because of the 17 prime ministers that were at during the heisei era. He was my father longest having so much political Capital to spend of any recent leader of Japan but despite the promise to make moonshine to Japan has formed out the gender equality rankings climate change of something based government never really dealt with and will become an increasing flight to Japan has essentially continues. There's still the problem of Japan's declining birth rate in shrinking population. The do you think I'll be squandered the great opportunity to make serious systemic reforms that would put the country in a much stronger position beyond the limits of his time in office, which I stand by what I wrote that I think there's no question that I was determined to pursue political stability in value political stability is

00:21:59
Candidates health is as time went on disability is not a bad thing. But there's no question that that you did not use the tremendous power that he had accumulated your to prioritize you some of these is a harder challenges and you look at that some of the the structural reforms that were proposed is part of the third arrow and then the way in which they ended up being devised and then translated to law and then passed into law that implemented. I mean, it would be like a two or three-year process just to get something done. And are you mentioned climate change? I mean, I mean, I just a call I think of his missed opportunities knows it's a huge in Japan was probably the most stable democracy of the G7 for a good chunk of our 10-year it without significant domestic opposition unlike a lot of his his peers p e it is easy to imagine that he could have

00:22:59
It could have been a a genuine leader on on climate issues that if he could have made it a priority and at least targeted Japan's carbon emissions in a much more aggressive play. Yeah and what it wasn't like he will the two of the politics when he wanted to as we talked about before with the challenges to the role of the self Defence Force plays in 2015. Who do you suppose you really pushed them through Parliament and even his popularity drop to the time it recovered in he did still spend another five years as prime minister CD one day if he couldn't take a more aggressive approach in the various not just climate change but sitting with the declining birth rates Regional revitalization, and we are the things that he could have attempted to do is issue and and I think maybe to the last of that and I do right about this in the book said that maybe the ultimate lesson of the Opera years is

00:23:56
That what I think was the great hope of the heisei era, you know that you're bleeding out the other year was this great hope that you would have a strong leader. You would have policy debates. You have two strong parties in a robust democracy in the strong prime minister who would actually to the National policy and and that was the answer to Japan's problems and Sakura Japan's future and you in some ways Ave was the realization of of the dream of those reformers and in some places in illustration of the limits of that Vision, you know, you have you do have these enormous social problems these the intergenerational problems. We're going to decisions of today are echoing into the future and are going to affect future generations and their sort of beyond the ability of a leader of the performers all hoped for the fact is that these are things Japan is going to have to live with

00:24:56
And keep your job is successors are going to Chances Are they're probably not going to be quite as politically powerful because they're probably not going to enjoyed the stable conditions that Ave was blessed with for I think a good chunk of his tenure. Yes in the first times for whoever's next will be dealing with the impact of the coronavirus. You're just that the fiscal impact of baby boomers getting older. Yo is the demographic crunch really starts to be felt and who knows what what age is going to look like depending on the decision of the US and China and the other powers in the region that near that's going to impose potentially some constraints of Japan's leaders going forward. I still think his pursuit of a new model for growth over the long-term your head. You at least has not borne fruit yet. And so if these are all problems to his success

00:25:56
They're going to live with.

00:26:00
Set coming back to the clock. We started this excerpt out with do you think the Abba Chief the transformation 50 pounds that he desired I think all you have to do to that question is to listen to the press conference he gave him when she announced his intention to resign and any of you I take it several points sounded almost on the verge of tears in the end you admitted you didn't quite frankly Inn and express his regrets for you for not being a revised Constitution. Nothing over to bring him back to his home yesterday with that. I think recognizing that if he wasn't able to sell some of the biggest near the biggest things that he had wanted to use his is political power for its okay with that going back to to what we were talking about previously. It said there was a an attempt to find a way for Japan to be a strong important country even as it is it lives with him some pretty some pretty

00:27:00
Long-term constraints and and that's maybe that is the lesson of the Abba area. So it's not a Japan. It is fundamentally transformed but depended is able to be maybe to have a little more courage in the face of its challenges.

00:27:21
That was Tobias Harris. My thanks to him for appearing not just on the show Bull on last week's check as well. His new book The iconoclast is out. Now if people to try the hush website for Global delivery, Utah business can use the promo code iconoclast 25 to get the 25% discount a link instructions will be in the show notes don't even now is what happens Cuda a right activist in a co-founding member of the group of students emergency action for Liberal democracy Fastener invite acronym seals drop 2015 and 16 Seer demonstrations against the Ave government proposed security laws that redefined the role of Japan self-defense force in overseas operations, those demonstrations turned into the country's largest protest movement since the 1960s with an estimated 150000 people taking to the streets outside Parliament.

00:28:17
When will the weather be like today? I think redefining the security laws will almost certainly be so over this one of the key policy changes of his time. So that the leader of the ice protest against what was it about that moment in time that galvanized say many people to march with Seal's face in protest was definitely a bad demonstration passing unconstitutional laws in one after another but at the same time, I know how unfamiliar Japanese people feel to Constitution. So honestly, I think media played a bigger role for you know, that many people to join us back then I mean both math and social media back in 2011. There were a fairly big protest against nuclear power plants due to the accident happened in Hiroshima, right and then a few days later. There was Cesspool which was a group of students protested against the equal protection law.

00:29:17
Are we grew up to be seals and during all that time? I remember media was constantly reporting about us. So that's simply attracted more and more people because it's not really like Japan has no history of protests and demonstrations. It's been happening. It just wasn't really widely recognized and seen in mainstream media like the ones in 2015. So with the help of a media image more Japanese people confident like comfortable enough to be a part of the movement. What do you think about this protest made them? So like media-friendly or in a make the media won't report on them or was it the issue itself? Definitely that you shoot yourself. Why is the reason as well, but at the same time seals use a lot of social media approach to people in my generation, so in a Millennials and young girl, you know, we paid so much attention to details with Fliers and or what we wore to the protest and how we spell

00:30:17
And how we used hip hop music at the protest. And so I think we really try to change the whole picture of the protests and demonstrations. The people hat we have to repaint the whole picture for more people to First feel comfortable then beat me in a with us and join us see what's with the group that made protesting cool again in Japan. Do you recognize that much attention our parents, you know that also occurred in a lead to another form of sexism in the movement as well. But we worked with some clothing brands or like actual designers. We try to be more somehow my media friendly and also Millennial friendly that of course, he moved a lot of things in my time as well.

00:31:17
But at least I learned that that's how things work in Tokyo and and yet that ended up bringing more and more people to the streets, which was definitely approved as an atom of us are coming back to me. She's a little a little bit more runs around that time Apollo by The Daily newspaper this citation burn. I think we're taking in September 2015 found that 54% of the respondents that pole opposed. The bill was trying to push through this 2015 security both but those bills did end up passing sights say what effects do you think, you know the other government pushing those security goes through government to spy a majority of the public being opposed his head on the country on democracy.

00:32:03
I think by pushing that through despite public high position. I think he's succeeded to make more people more citizens lose their faith in democracy. First of all, so Japan has been a democratic country after World War II, but after the student movement and 60s and 70s, which came to an unfortunate end people start avoiding major political interactions, which even included voting at elections. Like I said earlier with time or more people started participating joining us in the streets or not, but then that you know the bills passed in September and then me and I'm at the point once again people let down and it made people feel like their voice and actions don't matter anymore. I mean, what is a prime minister and his animals Street Administration that failed as a non democracy, but it did make a lot of people feel as if our movement failed once he successfully did that

00:33:03
Only became a habit and what it's been like five years now since then now people got used to us. So yeah, I think making people feel like their voice is like almost meaningless twitch person mean in further away from politics was the impact that had on our society and our democracy on to win a Super majority in 2016 and Wind by fifty author another house in a national election, which is another form of democratic practice form of democracy. Does that make you feel and how does that make you reflect on those protests? I was a little bit disappointed for certainly wasn't surprised at all as a former member of seals. I would say we've definitely did what we could

00:34:03
But also we definitely did not have enough time to work on bringing more people to vote other more than 30% of young people in their twenties. I believe when to vote at the election, which also means if people actually showed up at the polls, then things might change in the future. So I wasn't too disappointed. It's not like that many people actively supported in oldp and you know, Abbas politics, but again, like I said election is election democracy cannot just you know, be accomplished with boating or just purchasing we need both

00:34:55
So I want to move forward in time away from your weapons. He has to ask you what you're doing now a lot more which is writing a lot about feminism and Nick from young woman's perspective in Japan. Bring it back to Albany. I want to Robins Pleasures on the album exposed to try and promote a more diverse Society on the black forest with his campaign slogan of them wanting to make women's shine over the course of his time in Japan his gender equality tables. So it would you like to see the prime minister's dude just pulled women forcible. Yes. They said something about make women shine, but I think what they actually meant was that they want women to shine for them not for women themselves. It's not never about entitlement or empowering women. Yes, and maybe four

00:35:55
Future Prime Minister whoever that might be maybe you know, they could actually let women choose to shine or not. But yeah for sure I would love to see more women having sex at the table for civil and I expect to have more woman's voice represented in politics, which I really think shouldn't be something that we still need to in a demand in 2020, but I see little to no representation that I want to see in politics. Yeah, and I really want to in a future Prime Minister to to work for the people and not just for the rich but actually worked or as you know more Denver Nicole economically stable society that gives you know, like I said everyone a chance to live not to survive but to live to live the life they want not to survive the life that they were gif.

00:36:55
So yeah, I know so I really want I really want to know I want them to definitely stop letting middle-aged man with outdated mindsets to dictate everything and I got very far off. I mean if you do get these moments by Chelsea outside validated fix on pool when I

00:37:16
Health-conscious where it was a New Zealand politician he put that baby to Parliament and they were like a bloated and I think I know something in the Kumamoto. Ayi woman thought that baby spawn the neighbor kicked out or like a stalevo. Yeah, that is still controversial because it's it's quite interesting because when I went in the society women says, they don't want to have children.

00:37:51
. So so controversial but then when they have kids bring them to work and that's so so controversial. That's also a problem. So any message is pretty clear. They they just said they want us to stay home and take care of, you know, if the house and kids and that's pretty much what they want, you know for us to do so moving in to get into politics. Like I just said a lot of people still expect women to be in a stay-at-home moms. Right and those are exactly the people that's you know in the government right now. So to send more women there. Yes that is that is available. And that's a lot of a lot of work and I know some parties have been trying but I think so that you know, when when a woman wants to to work or have some Korea going to do anything else out of her household. We already have in a lot more.

00:38:51
Icicles than men do so first of all we have to fix there so that women can actually leave the house and interprets do whatever they want. And you know, including be more involved in politics. Would you support something like a quota system if you look at, you know, the leadership at listed company so so companies that are wrong the stock exchange around the world in Japan. The number of the percentage of women on the both of us companies is just 3.7% passing France. It was about 54% 23% in the UK and about 18% in the US so still no great trick is is a quota system the solution to at least a fast to get more people into Elmo women inspired leadership roles.

00:39:48
Play with these numbers if it's almost like women don't live here. But yeah, I totally support that. I mean it really shouldn't be about numbers of women. You know, how many women are there in here is shouldn't be about that. But unfortunately it still is and to have in a woman's voice represented in certain places. We definitely need in a certain number of a woman's and yeah, I totally support this system and I actually I want to see that here.

00:40:23
Thanks so much for joining me say, thank you.

00:40:33
That's it for deep dive this week. I hope you're safe to use on Shingle Ave. Come here for a while and next week. We'll be looking at something different. My thanks to walk Aquaphor Cuda for joining us and Tobias Harris to not just this week or last week as well. Find out west Seymour from them by checking out. I'll show notes they supposed to use the listening for making it respond to the episode. I'm to all those who've recently rated the show. It's never too late to add another one. If you want to reach out to us directly find me on Twitter at OMH Boyd or send us an email to email is deep died at Japan times. Co. JP until next time thanks. It's always listening. A very big Brother. Come on.
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