The Decrypt Daily: Bitcoin & Cryptocurrency News Podcast - Oct 23: The Voting Dilemma: Your Data & Voting on the Blockchain

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00:00:01
From the Crypt Ico. This is the decrypt daily. My name is Matthew Aaron today on the show is what I find is the most important use cases for blockchain technology. And that's voting on The blockchain in these times in the United States voting in person. Mail-in voting remote voting. It is a very contentious subject and it's contentious just talkin about the voting process. However, now we can talk about fake news manipulation Cambridge analytica and your data to boot. So in this episode on Bold and the button I have to guess I have Gilbert Hill CEO of half of my data talking just about data and how it can affect your decision-making and then I have Pete Martin CEO of Bodom a company committed to putting voting in the palm of your hand and also on the blockchain for transparency.

00:01:01
And equality and Equity. I'm going to talk to both of them to find out if this is a viable solution to the perils that the United States faces during this presidential election. Enjoy.

00:01:17
Gilbert how you doing? Welcome to the show. So this is the start of voting on The blockchain. I'm going to talk to a volume a little bit later about how to do that. But I'm talking to you right now because of data you have a company called tap my data you protect help people not only know where that has been used. But how to use your data for someone to tell me a little bit about tap. My data absolutely will build Tulsa people to buy Sea Island Medical identity and also for companies in political parties to rebuild trust with privacy by Design and a blockchain keeping the school. So we go to mobile out to people's request a secure wallet and also a web platform for businesses and people to start talkin guy to securely awesome. And the reason why I want you to let me know about that is because that is the way that beat all these companies are there any how to manipulate you either if it is social media companies if it's you know, advertising companies, but what we really focusing on today is

00:02:17
Boating and the company's I'm going to call and companies as the Democratic and Republican party companies and they know how to get your data and influence your decision making can you tell me how they do that? That's why I don't think you hit the nail on the head with with influence and you know the connection with Ad Sack and politics is but it's not just about monetizing a date because it's on his son doesn't have so much value but more about monarch butterflies in a monetizing our attention ice creams. I live to chat digital identities and politics learn from at Tech and picked up a poll on this and ran with it. So you think about a dice of having value in this complex, you know, we started to see it being weaponized and this is also where I think blockchain can be a force for good against with it. When I tell you this taken in one context is processed. That's where it gets its value. If you take me to the title is an analogy and is transported to a different context generally without our awareness. That's a great hat.

00:03:17
Great show on Netflix in the whole Cambridge analytica Scandal showed when the system's manipulates emotionally take us down the rabbit hole of contents of Randomness or Cisco or indicate two of us. We hold a certain set of beliefs it quickly sauce to get worrying. I thought it was an experience with a couple of days ago. Now population replacement is a term that use in sentence. All right contact someone who is not far right when I counted it reading an article from The Economist. I got no idea what we're talking about. So I Googled it and no sooner had I done that I now have a series of suggested search is a new speed items appear my Twitter about other far-right conspiracy theories, which I'm not going to give it a oxygen to hear. No, I didn't check in on other social platforms, but you can be sure that it's the same situation acoustic by David measure specific design to radicalize me because I'm a bearded white man of a certain age is in itself a conspiracy theory that the scientist alumascape platform.

00:04:17
Make connections which light blockchain to be manipulated by that. We just kind of some kind of social 51% attack Next Level these dates of voodoo dolls or mannequins constructed for each of us can be used to deny has access to a write-in votes in other areas and that's classified as nothing you that's classic red line has revealed in the 1960s neighborhoods with denied access to product and life opportunities based on Lori racial profiling what's happening now is it's more subtle but it's no less alarming the dinosaur that was held in others hands in this case and political parties in there and their agents and the concept of inverse property applies to do some type of bond Microsoft back in 2016, if by Sea refers to a situation with some certainty is access to your personal info, which you done now.

00:05:17
The case of help provide does a lawyer's advice that I argue reasonably that I can threaten state to the stuff you best. I know one of the boats with Cambridge analytica as being a diva CEO Alex on to next week if I could use possible thaisa blended with social to create profiles of Boces in the UK brexit and the u.s. Election 2016 election, which new people better than mine using seven selves. Let's play. Janaan doubted role in the 2016 election and well, you know this basic data scraping is now banned on Facebook as evidence, but now mobile apps in particular are so stupid. I said she's been used to push often misleading messages to vote is about eligibility and timings even locations. So there's a lot of things going on that. I really like what you said tonight. I'm going to use the term social 51% at a guy think that's exactly what it is. All you need is 51% of the vote. You have the majority. We have a simple majority it here in the states in the UK as well that that's all you need.

00:06:17
You is to gain that was called social hashing power inverters privacy. You said inverse privacy? What is inverse privacy? Can you explain that a little bit more? And then with that inverse privacy? Can you go ahead and please just touch on what people what these companies can do with that data? Look you said you're a bearded white man. And you know people attached that imagery to a certain political ideology. I guess the question here is how dangerous is this data and in the hands of the say a bad actor or something that want to use this data can they actually manipulate your ideologies it to what they want you are they able to use it to bend at your ideologies to gain that I say so hashing power bi can East Lansing the biggest the biggest weapon inverter Armory is a fact that you're you're unaware that it exists and

00:07:17
Actions of being made I mean like here in the UK Hugo something which is cool. But if you get a centralized results, which is the electoral roll details of boats with addresses and info now, this is not one of the richest resources of the market is wanting to Target consumers and things on your threat boxing door drop something about that and again political parties child and profiles of name to vote based on this data polling data on social that we just talked about Blended tighter. So I think we're moving from a situation where you know, there's bean festival best being very little control over around eight about what's being done with it. So that concept of inverse privacy is when all the rules and regulations know more about me than I do myself. So if you think about it, well quit will, you know, we're living glass screens now as I keep telling my teenage daughter to the listen to me to control

00:08:17
Identity in our reality resumption, but people don't care about privacy. I haven't been given the information to become aware or exercise any kind of real Choice which is similar to a situation. We used to have with things like accessing Financial Financial products is it is just annoying life up to an assisted them with starting to see a shift Universal gdpr in Europe and in Swiss ECPI in California, right bringing more focus on citizens rights around data, you know, but that is a big problem with this with business decentralized tools of nitrous to fold, you know, that's where this industry was he comes in first lie. That's a lot of consumer great tools for people to discover repatriate analyze and shaved ice if I hold about them giving me

00:09:17
Didn't seem that way and secondly institutions which how old was tied up with a lot of trust in them to do the right thing. Not the right thing around how well they comply a manager title and we generally only find out when something goes horribly wrong like the Equifax breach a few years back with details of 150 Americans 15 million Americans were lost and once I trusted lost it's very difficult to move your people become cynical and that's where they can become very susceptible to these a conspiracy theories that person is real quick. What can we do and I know we can say we take back our data we can control our dad about first day of first that's not really possible. Our dad is already out there people know I just about enough about me right now to use that data for the next 10 years of my life. At least what needs to happen in please put just please briefly touch on this but what needs to happen in

00:10:16
Is of government in terms of tech companies in terms of our I guess social or Collective Consciousness about what our data is from from crypto, like cold wallets with coins are Bare Assets, you know, like, you know, not your keys not your crypto then regulators and government should help to people to stop Supply that concept with their diets are assets to and it's you know, it's really important that companies that are wanting to do things with data on adding to this problem. You're quite right of Huntersville directions to cut my ties that I've lost control. But if I'm forming, you know a relationship with a new if you're not going to be a new player on the title, but I sat at the table when I want to demonstrate that I'm doing the right thing by Dyson Dyson minimisation and asking questions about companies what I'm talking to people in contact so you work in contacts.

00:11:16
I saved the biggest question I have is where did you get my Dieter or someone is pissed off in a conversation. They will want to start to ask difficult questions about the moment. The default is just a bouncing into a kind of Regulation conversation unless I I don't have to give you what I have to do more people should be asking questions and starting that dialogue and Regulators should and all starting to facilitate that I need a company's been slow it to get with the program that when you see the example of the u.s. President Andrew Yang release dates a dividend to action you can save a direction of travel with people are aware that they died truth value is being used it like twice using Waze. I don't suppose I can even harm them. I mean not being built into a market which is worth around 200 billion dollars a year now unlocking that diet about personal agency in the source of Revenue.

00:12:16
Is I think it's a killer app for crypto. You know, it's defy. I'm steroid. So I'm optimistic that we should wash his face when I give her hell CEO of tap my data. Thank you very much for the show and talking about this with you again soon with you.

00:12:41
He how you doing, man? Welcome to the show. Thanks Matthew. It's great to be part of that the show here. I appreciate the time because this is a time that we need to talk about. This. This is what I'm talking about is voting in. The United States is just a mess. We're talking about bullying take place is being taken away. We're talking about people on lockdown people scared to get covid-19 going out to vote for the president of the United States and then we can of course conversation mail-in ballots. Are they going to be reliable trustworthy can people can we the people trust our ballot our vote be cast for this election and you know with all of that. I just want to cut through through all of the BS and I will say that you please tell us about the system that we have right now with voting and possible better solutions for the American people to cast their Ballot, or maybe I trust this way. Yeah, that's a great question. It's this is on the minds of a lot of people right now, obviously, so, you know, if you if you're going to step back from all the noise in

00:13:38
Read the others. There's really only two ways to vote. It's either in person or remotely and then we talked about remotely you talk about a couple of different ways from the mail in ballots so we can get into that a little bit more detail or some alternative ways, which is what we're focused on and some of our competitors which is the bility to vote through your mobile device or over the internet and doing that in a very secure in a very verifiable way until that's this really, you know, pretty much that it's that simple and from the in person perspective as you kind of touched on a lot of people because of covid-19.

00:14:38
Boarding going to a polling place and no potentially getting coded and just lots of enthusiasm for what's going on right now. I think we need to have a baseline first before we start talking about these alternatives to remote voting. Do you think that mail-in voting mitzi's mail-in ballots are a secure way to vote. Yeah. That's a really good question. So the short answer is I do I want to put my trust and faith in the u.s. Postal system. I think the issue you'll be on just yolk in the mail get delivered and is a trustworthy is this is a fairly new way to vote for a lot of people in Odyssey the volume of the postal service's way up. So there's lots and lots of issues and they're typically human issues. It's not a pride thing. It's not a young. Yes. There are some examples out there. I'm currently even from this last week, but for the most part it's it is a relatively secure way to vote. Somebody comes a lot of problems and show in the primary 500,000 ballots have been invalidated.

00:15:38
In the primary in its again, that's not a Friday issue. It's not a u.s. Postal service issue. It's things like the signature doesn't match what the election commission has on on the record from the DMV. It is people not having a witness people not signing the inner envelope. So it's all of these human errors that have come up just in the primary and it's going to be exacerbated here in the general and if you think about in the 2016 election where the difference in the public vote was only 3 million votes 500,000 just in the primary is a huge number. So you've got you know, some of the delays and issues with the Postal Service, then you have to go human error and then you have all just the logistical issues of processing the ballots in time and it's just kind of craziness this Frame this in more of a dump down rating system. If I will you were going to rate if you're going to rain in voting in Fruit person, I like a scale 1 to 10 being the last be safe and 10

00:16:38
The most safe way to vote. What would you give that? Well when you stay safe meaning the security and integrity of the ballot? Yes, sir. I would say it's a 9 okay enough. You said a remote voting when mail-in ballots, what would you give that for mail-in ballots? I would say it's about a 6 or 7 whether you're voting through the mail. What are your voting in person? Right. I'm going to actually put them in the same category for just a second without using the technology we use and some of our competitors as of voter. You have to put your trust completely in the elections commission election body that's processing those ballots. And so as a note individual voter you have no idea no definitive verifiable proof that your vote was cast and counted exactly as you intended. So so in both systems the way that process works currently, even if you trust walking into a polling place in cash

00:17:38
In your ballot, you still don't know individually when you walk away from there, even if you get a paper receipt weather that boat was actually counted as you exactly as you intended and that's the problem that we saw for cutting else. We talked to lots of Elections officials over the five years. We've been doing this and I can tell lots of stories about fraud that happened in the polling place, but it's not a ton. It's it's a, you know, an infant Isomil percentage of what's happened. So I'd say you're the likelihood of your vote being counted exactly as you cast it is, you know, 9.99% and mailing Bellis Fair and balanced I'd say it's somewhere between a 5 and a 7 and in the reason why I want to talk about a different system and I want to talk about what you're working on at vodom as a way to vote via your iPhone or your digital devices and how trustworthy that is to count your vote and

00:18:38
Boat gets too and that you're voting for a certain person is being counted for that person is being registered the way that was intended to be so go ahead and talk about modem and how you're creating a new way of voting platform is built on a technology called blockchain in without getting into the technical details of what blockchain is it gives you the ability to verify why every vote in real time through independent Authority. So what I mean by that is you giving Theory have every candidate every political parties and media election observers, whatever all be verifying mathematically verifying every vote as it comes in and only if and only those boats are actually validated would like to get written to The Ballot Box. So once that been happens we go through a process using similar technology that allows you is the voter to get a essentially digital receipt.

00:19:38
It says from the time that you cast that ballot to the time that we actually counted it not a single bit has been changed. And then again that's that's kind of the game changer and in this is all done through this technology called blockchain where you verifying every vote in real time. And how safe is that it can you Friday? Can you not mix up signatures like you said with the mail in that valise? Is there any issues with this? Yeah, I think that from a technical perspective. It's pretty sound and we're constantly battling the complexity of all of these technical components with the ability for security researchers to verify that everything is working properly. But yeah, we we've just been scanned by the states that we work with what we've just been recently scan by the federal government by the Department of Homeland Security and we came out pretty squeaky clean. So I will you know, I would never say that

00:20:38
Unhackable, no system is completely unhackable, but we're about as impenetrable as you can possibly get at the moment. So how would this work? Tell me about the UI of this vision of the future of every American citizen voting. Would you think that's how you unlock your ballot with your face ID on your Apple or your Apple ID, or do you have a special like private key and you sent it to a public address? I got the whole voting process work that we do that we do it through combination of last four of your Social or driver's license with a pin that we send you we can do this to any Biometrics from your facial ID on tidier, you know, some kind of a photographic identification at the end of the day the technology is far surpassed. The the law meaning all states have different ways of authenticating you as a voter and we just have to

00:21:38
Comply with it with whatever the law is in that state and most laws right now basically say that anybody can show up and vote. You don't need a photo ID or anything else. And so we have to figure out ways around that but in future we would love the ability to use any kind of a biometric indicator to authenticate that you are who you are and based on that. Then you receive the appropriate ballot based in the precinct to pass the law of of what you need to vote. So if it's already surpassed the law and what you need to vote in you are obviously are doing this as you told me all this place me Offline that there are states for overseas voters are people in the military using your system already. What's the holdup to roll this out in the whole United States is a dire need like right now. Yeah, it's it's a good question. I think it's a combination of three things. It's a combination of politics some people believe in the notion of More lyrics

00:22:38
Tribal identification some do not so that turns into a political debate. If you just bring up should you have a photo ID you're going to get people from both sides can arguing their point of view. You've got in three players in the industry that are fairly in trench that have your they are the ones that are making the physical voting machines at a polling place. They have no incentive whatsoever to go to remote loading cuz that kills your business. You got a lot of intrinsic interest and then you know, you just got the fear of hacking at the consumer level and it's it's a legitimate fear and it needs to be addressed properly. And so you got 10 of those three things that are working against us in trying to make this more prevalent us. We've got an offering that we're going to introduce next year that will give the motor to build to do pretty much everything you'd want to do it where your authentic 8 yourself you actually get your ballot you mark your ballot but you still go to the polling place then and then you can print off your ballot and vote in a traditional.

00:23:38
We think that's a great on-ramp to making this in a more widespread. And I knew I was kind of going forward like as a fast pass or you know, as a pre ordering Starbucks and then just going to go pick up your your jury drink. It's been kind of thing. I understand the interest of the businesses that are making the voting machines I questioned without really quick. It would be so much more cost-effective if they just a thought your company and put all of their, you know infrastructure on the say a cloud system or a blockchain and then just license out there software to other states. I mean, why would they need physical machines anymore? They just kept their business. Doesn't that make more sense? If you're a hundred million dollar company and let's just say that are our cost for an election commission is let's just say 25% of that right? Are you going to be the company that says are a great we're going to shut down a hundred million dollar business. We're going to turn it in.

00:24:38
25 million dollar business, right? There's no business incentive to do that until you know, why be a good at Jump for some of those companies with they feel like that is the future. They can make a complementary to the record offering but nobody's going to change your business model take to basically cut it by 75% because your value proposition to make any cheaper than say duyvil or what was thinking he's a machine that mean but a fax machine company was just said, hey, we're done because we all know the government's get charged appropriate and Fair Race for everything. They discharging the same amount. I mean, they could have cut their costs and increase our profit for the shareholders. Anyway, I'm just I'm just talking about business model is it doesn't really matter if you said was hacking if you think that we see these machines get hacked all the time. If you see kids in middle school, you know, how come in under under a minute and a half a size is do you think that the fear of the public is just because they don't either one knows the actual security of these machines in to understand the power of the boxing.

00:25:38
Backing is machine. So the media has got a great disservice to the public and Reporting what comes out of Defcon and you know where the kid hack the machine and get a minute or whatever time that was an illegitimate voting machine. It's in production and the machines that are it you have came out of Defcon. There are even more than just software and Technical security features. They're also operational technical features. In other words. These voting machines are sitting and warehouses that are locked up and have cameras on them and they're monitored consistently. So for somebody to pick up a machine at Defcon, you know off of eBay and literally take screwdrivers and and your tires and pull it apart and change out the chips at that's not going to happen in reality. And so because there's operational procedure security procedures and everything else. So you have a lot of the reports that have come out of around the hacking of the voting machines is just not going to happen in real life.

00:26:38
And then from the bloodstream perspective go ahead. I was at a think tank a couple of years ago and and a former Secretary of State ask me know. How do you explain blockchain to the secretaries of State? My answer was I don't it's it's complicated technology to write that they don't need to understand, you know, you don't need to understand how a plane flies to get on a plane and you don't need to understand how a Car Works go drive a car right until we talk about what it enables which is the ability to have ended and verifiability across the entire voting chain with chain of custody without having to explain what the heck blockchain is and I think is an industry is a blockchain industry if you will we talked a lot about how this is a unique industry and that we tend to explain blockchain by how it works as opposed to what it. And so, you know, if you if you look in the microwave and he say what does that do? You don't start talking about shooting gamma rays at Food you say? Hey cook's food faster.

00:27:38
Where we need to move is in an industry. We talked about the capabilities of the Block in for voting for a Ste 200 million people in the United States. If you put a phone in everybody's hand their way has the access Uvalde from their sofa one of the biggest talking points has the throughput of blockchain the ability for a boxing to be able to record set data fast enough and get it to the point fast enough without eggs or just a lot of backups and delays. Is that a valid concern from the black chain or crypto space? No, not at all. I'm in. So the reason is we don't use a public blockchain like a theory and more or the Bitcoin blockchain. Then we use a private commission-based blockchain and we built it so they can scale. So we we've actually run the largest blockchain vote in the world was actually not do it wasn't public lecture.

00:28:38
Christopher the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame is over 3 million boats and we had I think the half a million within literally probably in a couple of hours when when the boat opened up and there was Zero issues. There was no latency problems whatsoever. And that's just based on the fact that were using private permission chain and there we know we both have for scale. And so if you think about 200 million people voting for my people knocking about all of the same time, right you have all the laws in the books about early voting and you know, all that kind of stuff and so we can scale a properly this is just not an issue for us whatsoever. Final question is I guess is more philosophical and the previous as I alluded to as begin. This conversation is the previous discussion we had on this podcast was about our data Harbour manipulating the votes based on our data is not controlling our data. Do you see that? There's any slippery slope situation with having a phone in your hand with the manipulation of Elections or fake news or

00:29:37
Deepfakes AI face, whatever kind of new Texas going to come out to try to manipulate the voters to in with my previous called was a social 51% attack. You think that they're having the power in your hand of the boat in Europe on your cell phone has a straight that issue of vote manipulation or fake news or or just a hacking the individual you if you talk to most election officials, they will tell you that is our biggest concern is the disinformation. I we we are part of a group called The sector coordinating Council which is part of the Department of Homeland Security and it's all the five major elections Avengers and we got that we get on calls. We've been a Cause 3 times a week pretty much through the selection season to talk about, you know, the more abilities from nation-states rompio all the different Avenues of influence that others are trying to put on the u.s. Election system and most of the conversations around the disinformation.

00:30:37
Until you know to have to go from a tweet or a Facebook post whatever to be able to bend easily vote in your phone. You know, you take all the friction away. I don't know maybe that's a concern, you know, we're not going to solve the disinformation piece of it. That's not what we're focused on doing I've been so maybe having less friction is a little bit more concerning but you know, we we we finally come at this from the perspective of you know, it should be easy to vote and difficult if not impossible to cheat and that's what we're really focused on and so as long as we are successful in that regard, I think that no matter what gets information about their you know, whether you vote in the mail with your voting in person with your voting to our apt. It's it's kind of the same thing. You just got to take a breath and say, you know how I really want to cast his ballot. And is this the proper system that I'm on and and you know, there's lots of other issues outside just pure security that we need to be concerned about so after work,

00:31:37
What I'm doing, but I just information Stephanie piece of it right on Pete Martin CEO of Bodom and a fellow Cleveland or what they can become of the show and talking about this very important and timely issue after I really appreciate it was great fun and and go out and vote. Everybody got a couple weeks left.

00:31:58
Thank you for listening to this episode of the decrypt daily. That's all for this week. I hope you enjoyed my week off and if you enjoyed it better than my normal week, you can also let me know that go to iTunes Apple podcast Please Subscribe leave me a rating and a comment. It's very much appreciated to make sure that these episodes getting through the hands of people who want to know about crypto blockchain Tech and is emerging industry. I'll see you on Monday for a normal episode of the decrypt a league copy houghtaling and stay safe and have a good weekend.
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