The Tim Ferriss Show - #477: Yuval Noah Harari on The Story of Sapiens, Forging the Skill of Awareness, and The Power of Disguised Books

Yuval Noah Harari on The Story of Sapiens, Forging the Skill of Awareness, and The Power of Disguised Books | Brought to you by LinkedIn Jobs recruitment platform with ~700M users, Pique Tea high-end, instant tea crystals (pu-erh, etc.), and Allform premium, modular furnitureProf. Yuval Noah Harari (@harari_yuval) is a historian and bestselling author who is considered one of the world’s most influential public intellectuals today. His popular books—Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind,&nb

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Little boys and girls ladies and germs, this is Tim Ferriss. Welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferriss show. My guests today many of you will know the name and those who don't will know much more about him shortly Professor Yuval. Noah Harari is a historian. The best selling author was considered one of the most influential public intellectuals in the world. I know that setting a high bar, but his popular books might ring a bell sapiens a brief history of humankind homo Deus a brief history of tomorrow and 21 lessons for the 21st century have sold 27 1/2 million copies roughly in 60 languages. I'll let that sink in for people 27.5 million copies that is a lot of square footage or a cubic cubic feet to cubic meters. They've been recommended by Barack Obama Chris Evans Bill Gates and many others is also behind sapiens a graphic history, which we'll talk about a brand new graphic novel Series in collaboration with comic artist David vandermeulen, I think co-writer and Daniel Casa Nava the illustrator

This beautifully Illustrated series is a radical reworking of his book sapiens subtitle a brief history of humankind a series will be publishing four volumes starting volume 1. The birth of humankind's available now is website Y and hardy har har If I'm on Facebook Twitter Instagram on Twitter Harari underscore, you've all will link to all the rest of them at Tim dup log / podcast.

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What if I do the album?

I'm a cybernetic organism living tissue over metal endoskeleton.

You've all so nice to finally see you. Be sure. Thank you for inviting me. So we're going to start in a unusual Place perhaps. Okay, and that is with correct my pronunciation on a word m o s h a V. How do you pronounce that and what does it mean, how goes around at least one of them only Michelle which is some kind of socialist elected Community but one of the experiments of socialist in Israel, and it's just not true. I mean, I live in a kind of middle-class suburb of Tel Aviv. So this is an example for this listings of something that some people call the Wikipedia Echo effect because I actually

So some point of got into Wikipedia, then it ended up in the guardian. Then other people site the guardian and it just will not go away as yet just keeps coming back. So let's go to something that I think is more of a first-hand report and it's it's a paragraph from your wonderful profile. I should say answers to questions in tribe of mentors, which is my last book from a few years ago. And here's the paragraph I'd like to read and then we'll explore it since the first course in 2000. I began practicing a pasta for two hours every day and each year. I take a long Meditation Retreat for a month or two. It's not an escape from reality. It's getting in touch with reality at least for two hours a day. I actually observe reality as it is well for the other 22 hours, I get overwhelmed by emails and tweets and funny cat videos without the focus and Clarity provided by this practice. I could not have written sapiens and Homo Deus.

The missing piece here is the first course. Would you be open to describing how you ended up going to your first the pasta experience coming? I was doing my PhD Oxford at the time about medieval military history.

And I was also looking for the meaning of life and everything lots of philosophy book and thinking about and then then nothing really clicked and the friend nag me for about a year to try and meditation Retreats into the reading all these books and finally I gave up. It's okay. I'll try I'll see how it is and it was really fascinating because you know, how did the very first evening the instructions that I was given by the meditation teacher was very very simple instructions. I mean, I guess many people heard them that you just focus your entire. It is sit down and close your eyes and you just focus your entire attention on your nostrils on your nose and you just feel free to feel whether your breath is coming in or whether your breath is going out sounds like the simplest thing in the world is going to breathing exercise like you don't need to control the breath test.

Just let it be what it is and just feel what he does and I couldn't do it for more than 10 seconds, like most people that you know for 10 seconds. I would be focusing on my nostrils on my breast and after 10 seconds is my mind would run somewhere like to some memories some story something something. I forgot to do something that happened years ago and I was rolling that for four minutes before realizing the hey I am missing my breath and then come back and this was an extremely humiliating an important experience because it made me realize for the first time in my life that I have almost no control over my mind.

Let you know I was doing my teeth with Oxford. I thought it was I was a very intelligent person very smart. And you know, my mind is my my two.

And I have absolutely no control over it. I give you this very very simple tasks and he's conduit and also you realize how overwhelming the stories did the nine produced our overtime. This was not on the first night, but gradually over time it made me realize that you know, if you can't focus on the simple reality of your breath coming in and out of love your nostrils without being overwhelmed by some story generated in your mind and how can you hope to understand? I don't know that the financial system of the world the geopolitical system. What's happening in Israel in the Middle East much much bigger things. If you can't do that, I mean what I try to do these stories generated by the by my own mind get between me and reality and most of my life. I just spend on these stories.

So which was ever since Danny for one of my main practices in in life is how do you avoid being overwhelmed by the stories that your mind generates? Why did your friend nag you for a year? Was this a friend who is nagging everybody to go to class and the teacher as I understand it. Maybe it was in video. I will or I don't worry maybe in person s n goenka. I don't know the lifespan did they nag you because there's something about you that told them you would benefit in particular or was it a general nagging looking everybody? Anyway, I still good friends with him because I was really looking hard.

To understand life to understand what's happening here. Then he thought I would be a good candidate and then he was absolutely right. Now the person that clicks for some people it doesn't click four others. Some people gravitate to Transcendental Meditation and repeating a mantra other people might find a different type of mindfulness practice, but it clicked for you. What did the before-and-after look like? If we let's just say go back to that point on your first experience and then we Flash Forward 6 months what did changed six months later or or how did your perception of the world change some things change dramatically? Most things didn't I mean you have this kind of false Enlightenment experience and overtime you realize that the Deep patterns of yourself of your own line. I'm not much stronger than one course of meditation or practice of of six months.

I need to eat a very long way and again for some people it doesn't click it or I mean when I came out of my first cuz I thought it all that's easy man. And you can send anybody there. It will have the same thing later on. I realized it doesn't work like that different things work for different people all the time zone change on so many levels. I'm not sure which of these levels is most interesting to you of listeners so I can I can talk on on on several of them everything from Simplot simple kind of peace of mind and better Mental Health

2 and big change in my working methods in my professional life. I don't think as a role in the passage you you read I don't think I could have written sapiens or homo Deus or any of these other books without the practice of meditation because

you need a tremendous amount of focus to do something like that and you need to be able to see through the mass of details and you know, you try to summarize the whole of human history in 500 pages the most important button on the keyboard is delete. I mean, what are some of the important things what is really important that that's the big question and I don't think I could have done it without the kind of sharp Focus that the imitation game.

So many people have heard of sapience. Certainly. There was a point in Silicon Valley when it first came out and nearly all of my friends seem to be reading the same book and I think there's a sort of revisionist Grand Illusion among many readers that sapiens came out and then like the snap of the fingers 20 million copies ever many millions of copies were sold worldwide in 60 languages. Now that doesn't seem to to match the story exactly. What was the title of the original English version of sapiens. And how many copies did it sell the original English version was titled from animals into gods and if so, it was a self application on Amazon and it's sold something like two thousand copies they now go for I don't know thousands of dollars or something because the collector items

Longway Longway and you brought in then it's at that point the number of professionals. I believe you baby was your your husband you found a literary agent publication negotiations or anything to do with the business side of life and I tried for some time for maybe you will do to find a publisher by myself and it was a complete failure and then my husband came in and he has much much better business skills than I do and he like immediately fired the agent that they were working with at the time and kind of let go back to zero and he was the one that found the best literary agent in Israel or Deborah Harris and she opened a lot of those for us and we worked on it for I think we kind of

Translation again in are several several because originally for the Hebrew and several rounds of editing and eventually something like three years or more than three years after the Hebrew version the real English version came out in 2014. What were the biggest changes that were made aside from the title? I be curious to hear the story of sapience the title itself, but what were some of the changes that were made in the editing process before the grand debut of the new version if anything, I don't know if it was just fine-tuning the language major change the mean that they are all the major themes and ideas were already there in the Hebrew version. We will redo the inflation and edits and shortening here and there are a few things but but there was no major revision to the content. It was mainly issues of style and the

Tire kind of business approach to work with and how and you are wrong. So you never know what to read on the internet that it was based on lectures you had given previously. Is that true that I was giving a cost of the Hebrew University which was basically introduction to the history of the world and it's some point after working when he fought for couple of years. I began handing out my nose to the students because I wanted them to focus on what I was saying and be part of the discussion instead of just scribbling down whatever I say, so I told him to come you don't need to write anything. I'll give you my notes.

And ends ends with the note started circulating not only among the students of the class, but also other students at the University and this kind of gave me the idea that well maybe there is a larger audience for this and I began working on turning this lecture notes into into a book. It was a long way but a lot of the major ideas were there in the in the lecture notes and I wanted to hear more about this because I've seen in some books that I've quite enjoyed like zero to one by Peter teal and his his co-writer also came from lecture notes originally at Stanford students take no bulshit. You know when you want when you want to book and it's only you and the screen in the computer the computer stuff has everything whatever you ride. The computer is fine with it. It's too long. It's a it's incomprehensible. It's boring.

Computer doesn't care but the students give you immediate feedback. I mean if you still in class and you still need to talk and you see the students I've lost interest then that's time or they just don't understand what you were saying and the great thing about this cuz it wasn't really an introduction to first-year students and and Israeli students. And I know if I don't know why it wouldn't work but Israeli students they tell you exactly what they think about you and what do you think about everything and maybe some feedback is that and I was trying to explain the really basic concept of human history. What is religion? What is Manny what is capitalism and you need when you talk with professors or doctors, you can talk in a very very complicated way. So nobody realizes including yourself that you don't really know what you're talking about.

But with first-year students you have to use very simple language and that's a big challenge the simple of the language the bigger the challenge. It really shows you and your listeners whether you know what you're talkin about or not. You can't hide behind professional is argan and very complicated. I don't know language and so it was it supposed to me like I was trying to explain what is money and I had to go to bed again and again to do the way I used to the core ideas into the lecture notes and not really really understand what I'm talking about before you really understand. I should be able to make it simpler. I should be able to give a straightforward example. It makes me think quite a bit about Richard Fineman the physicist to is very very esteemed teacher and felt very similar like that that that professionals could hide by

Labels right pointing at the bird and knowing the name is very different from understanding and if you have to describe it in simple terms, it's a real challenge of of competence and clarity as a teacher if you mentioned the term suffering and again want you to fact-check me, but it seems to me and doing homework and reading your work that you are very attuned to suffering weather that is in the animal world weather that is in The Human Experience where that is in your own experience say with the endless cloudy days in Oxford at one point. I could you speak to how you developed that sensitivity a if if I'm not imposing that on you because I'm looking behind you right now and people might not be watching this video, but you have some calligraphy behind you, which is I believe it's fashion, which is like a Buddhist heart or Buddhist mind and I don't

The present and the beautiful that's what that's what it says and suffering in the concept of suffering is is also Central to a lot of Buddhist thought could you speak to how you think about suffering or why that is something that you're so cognizant of both in my personal life. And in my work is a storian. This is the big question. I mean the big question is not the meaning of life and the big question is not how you satisfy some gods or how you achieved that goal that the big question is how you liberate yourself and others from suffering and this is also I think the main theme of human history is most historians are focused on the question of power. If you take most history books about the most economic books in and so forth. They are about power.

They are not just annoy guide to how to get power. But about them the history of power conflicts about power between two kings between two kingdoms between two Gods between two religions between two classes did the most history books are about that and it's an important part. What is it is not the bottom line. I think the bottom line. Okay, what does all this mean in terms of happiness and suffering? So, okay. So the Roman Empire Rose to power didn't actually make humans. Happy year. Did it make them more miserable if it had no noticeable effect on say average happiness in the world. What does it matter whether they won or lost and in my work I try to always keep both of these perspectives at the same time the perspective of of power end of suffering, especially because you know humans of very very good as a species not all you as a species. We are very good in acquiring more power, but we are not

Go to Seoul in translating power into happiness in for me the big Paradox of history is that it's obvious. We are thousands of times more powerful than people in the Stone Age, but it's not clear whether we are at all happier than they were maybe we are happier and bit but that sounds like a car which you know, you you press the fuel pedal it was on your strength, but your gear is in neutral when we have so much power and we doesn't move anywhere and he's oh so often the case in your personal life that you can achieve so much and then, you know, you can start in your semi actually healthier than it was 10 years ago was 20 years ago, and maybe not then one of the things I also realized

Personally and collectively is a story is that we just don't understand suffering very well.

One of the main problems is that people think that

what's Maga. Flooring?

It's obvious. What suffering is the big problem is how to make it how to make it disappear. I know that I don't know pain and suffering. We don't have enough money to the cause of my suffering. So now let's focus on getting more money getting a medicine and you don't really understand the Deep causes and mechanisms of stuff from you say just fell asleep. That's true, but there is much more to it. And if we spent a little more time on understanding the Deep mechanisms of misery and dissatisfaction in life, then we can act far more effectively in in trying to alleviate it. Can you speak to the protest of suffering to determine what entities are real and what are NOS what are illusion and what are not maybe abstractions?

New Collective Corporation as individuals will not particularly powerful animals in a match between the human and chimpanzee chimpanzee. Will Italy win the big advantage of humans. We can incorporate basically unlimited numbers thousands millions today, even billions cooperate together chimpanzees can't cooperate mouth and say fifty or a hundred that that's about the limit and then have to cooperate in very large numbers this this is our ability to invent and believe in fictional stories and the fictional entities all the big heroes of History almost all of them are fictional entities that exists only in your imagination only in the stories that we create Nations God's money corporations States. The only place they exist is in the stories that we invent Intel as they'll know they are not physical of biological realities.

Against the United States or Israel. The only place it exists is in the story with millions of people believe and it's the same with money. It has you no money has absolutely no objective value.

But as long as millions of people believe in the story about the dollar or the story about the Euro it works now.

When you say that, sometimes people go to the Other Extreme and think that what you're saying is that nothing is real that the entire world is just one big illusion.

But that's not the case. I mean to be still reality. Still chimpanzees and elephants and humans and there is a very very simple test to know whether the hero of the story that you're telling is a real entity or a fictional entity invented by humans and existing only narinder imagination. And that is the test of suffering.

What's a human being can suffer a cow can suffer an elephant in Southborough, but a nation Kant if a nation loses a war it doesn't suffer. It has no mind can't feel pain or sadness or fear. The soldiers were fighting for the nation the citizens internasional being conquered by some other nations. They can suffer a lot of things but the nation suffered with corporations, even if the corporation losing the billion-dollar it doesn't suffer it even goes bankrupt. It doesn't suffer because it has no constant pain comes to anything.

So it's been a very very simple tense, but we should remind ourselves from time to time. What is really in the world and what are these fictional story on what the game's the stories? We need them. They are the basis for cooperation, but we should always remember we created them as tools to serve us. We shouldn't be enslaved by them.

Eva story enables people to cooperate well, and thereby improve the life. That's wonderful. But once you forget it's just a story and you begin in tile Wars just in order to protect to defend the owner of the nation how to increase the profits of the corporation something went wrong.

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What is the story if there is one or stories that you have around money yourself? I was reading the New Yorker profile not for not too long ago and you probably know the paragraph that I might be thinking about you and your husband might relate to money differently. What are the story is it that you have for yourself in your life money cheats the most successful and Universal system of mutual trust that Youmans ever came up with and therefore. I don't think it's bad. You know, it's very common for historians and philosophers and people like that's all I need is the source of all evil in the world. I don't think so. But in itself is a wonderful thing. It's just a system of mutual trust that do, you know 50,000 years ago to trust somebody who needs to know them personally.

You need to know the personality what they did in the past. They like you they don't like you and that makes it very very hard to cooperate in large numbers because you can't know a lot of people personally and politically hard to cooperate with strangers and foreigners that you don't know.

Let me look at today. I can go to a supermarket and a complete stranger that I never met in. My life would give me food that I can actually eat which was grown by couple of other people on the other side of the world and what's transported from vets field or Plantation to the supermarket by a bunch of other people. None of us knows how do we cooperate? So effectively, how do we trust each other money makes it possible and money is really it is just trust, you know, the beginning money was because he didn't have a lot of trust then money has to be made for from something with an objective value, which doesn't defend Justin on human belief. So the first money that we know about will sink legrain you paid for things with grain and grind, you know, if you can eat them if nothing works.

but gradually people

is a trust increased and today most money in the world. It's just vegetable data being fought between computers. Most money is not even Bank notes and coins. It's like 5% or something of that if they money is is is physical money. Most of it's just digital when during this crisis and in recent year government and banks in the US and Europe where created trillions of dollars they didn't even bother to bring the money. You just have some official in some Bank goes into the computer and the zero somewhere and you have a trillion eudora's emerging out of nothing and it work. I mean it works because people have so much trust

In the bank's in the government's amazing thing. You can only use the money if you don't have it. No you think about even I don't know Islamic Fundamentalist.

They hated America. They hated American politics American culture American religion, but they had nothing against the American dollars.

When they conquered I don't know muscle and enter the banks, they didn't burn the dollars that was there. They took them to use them. So that's amazing that you can have such a level of trust even between complete enemies.

End in my personal life. Therefore. I don't have any negative attitude towards money, I think for me but for me, the best thing about money is not to think about it. I'm not much wealthier than I was and years ago, you know just a young Professor back then but I'm not much wealthier and the thing I like most about my well today is I simply don't have to think about money I go to the supermarket and Royal pineapples a very expensive.

So are you playing with the timer for I just I I don't even look at how much it cost. I just thought I'd mention the alleviating of suffering and getting a better understanding. First of defining the problem is supposed to just rushing to Solutions and getting a better understanding of suffering are there ways in which your life in contrast to say not thinking about money has been complicated or made harder to navigate with the tremendous success of sapiens and becoming more publicly visible. In other words, was it as as just an example easier to find to tranquility and connection with bodily Sensations as a way to integrate yourself back in Oxford compared to today.

But I have 20 years experience now in doing that. So I don't know maybe if I remained an anonymous professor of medieval history, I would have much deeper experience is a pretty patient today maybe notes. It's impossible to know. I still have time. I'm not so busy. I have not allowed to team like again thanks to my husband to set it up. We now have a team of 15 people working for us. So I get something like I don't know 15-20 miles a day. That's it and like this conversation I even have to do anything. I just asked to come like 2 minutes before it started and just put like like myself in and that's it done by the organized everything. So I'm not extremely busy. I still have two hours every day to meditate. I still go every year for a long Retreats of the 30 days or 40 or 60 days something like that.

I think a lot of things to think but I thought a lot even before that the content of my phone changed but I don't think the intensity changed one of the things I realized for now being this famous public intellectual and meeting all these famous people in New Jersey. That is basically the same when you are prime minister or president of a superpower. You can't be more worried then when you run a small business, it's impossible to see you know, it's the same brain is the same mind.

So if you have a small shop and you're the only worker maybe and it's now Corona time and in any town and you have to pay your mortgage in Emerald Avenue worry about it all day. It's basically the same with the prime minister of president that worries about the economic crisis or War. It's golf course objectively. They have to be much more worried, but they can't they have the same brain that you have. So it's really depends on you know, maybe they are even more than you are if you have an extremely wealthy person. I don't know if we'll be able and had this mole show.

I think you would be much more worried about his shop then certain presidents and prime ministers today in the world of worried about their countries. I've read the quote from you. This is in the New York Times And if if I was a superpower my superpower would be Detachment. Feel free to correct that if need be but assuming there's some grain of Truth to that I could you expand on that place a kind of distance from situations from development in in in my personal life or in in in world history.

And even though I have my opinions and on my preferences, I have a certain ability to to keep a distance inside look at things from from different angles and also it which makes me very skeptical about my own positions. Maybe I maybe I just don't know maybe it could have been you know, the military things that I can't like a how can you write a history of the world if you're not sure about what you say

Actually, I find it. I just don't take myself 100% seriously.

It's okay. So maybe I'll write something when it's nonsense. So, okay, so I was kind of had this defense that I thought nobody going to read it. Like maybe my students at University would read it and maybe a couple of other people but that's it. So quickly and later on when when I became very successful. It was the other way around then that you know, it doesn't matter anymore that if if if if I write something and it's not and I'm not 100% sure about it, then I can take the hit.

Then okay, so people will find out if I wrote something wrong and then that's fine. That's part of the business when you see if you really wants to write these kinds of big books. You have to accept to some extent that you will make mistakes and that you will not get everything right it if you if you want if you're a perfectionist when it better to ride the history of kind of one battle in the Middle Ages that then Yonce for grounds this is going to seem like a strange question perhaps and if it goes nowhere, that's totally fine. But I'm curious. What do your close friends come to you for when it comes to advise like what type of advice do your friends come to you for? Is there any any pattern to it or any particular stand up? I think I have a very good friends that go with me for years. I mean from long before I think that's inside it.

Kind of stainless. I made maybe just want to go to new good friends. Almost all my good friends with me from from u.s. Bank and I've different relationships with each of them. It's like each one of them holds a different part of my inner world or of my life and I am I a whole different parts of the world. So don't come for me to me for advice about history. That's for sure, You say something really big happens. I don't know when does the height of of the of the terrorist wave in the world so that they would come in at least some of them and I would say look look for the big historical perspective. This is not so important, you know, every person that died in the terrorist attack is the entire world destroyed but looking at the big picture from the history of the world, this is a very

Welfare, I mean I can explain to you why terrorism get so much attention. It's basically theater. These people are experts in theater not in war and they're very good at it. So they get so much attention, but you don't need to worry the terrorists will take over the world. It is not going to happen.

Most of the things you know, it's like somebody's breaking up with their boyfriend girlfriend. Somebody's just having a lousy day at work and visit the usual things the usual stuff. What would they say your superpower is if if you said it's Detachment which we could dig further into but is there any other observations that they would have if if if we gave all of your closest friend who drinks and we said, okay, you've all superpower. What is it? What might they say they will say different things because they know different angles of me, right? I think some of them will say I supposed to be a good listener probably because I took so much during my work if it's like when I'm with his friends, I like to be quiet and just let somebody else do the talking for a watch which is a very good thing because very very often when people come to you for help. They just want you to listen. They don't want you to solve their problems. They don't

It often happens if somebody comes in with the problem and you don't have patience for them. So you think what is the fastest way to get rid of them to end this phone call? I'll find the solution to their problems and go away and this really is the last thing they want. They really just want to complain in and for somebody to listen to them and I'm quite good at it as you spend all your words during the day and then you can you have the space to listen. How do you relate to happiness happiness is is far more difficult to nail down, you know it when you're happy and you think you're happy you are quite often just deluding herself not so easy to really understand what's happening there. This is something I know for meditation when you have a pain song.

When your body attacks like an argument, they just Rose definition there if there is no way you can miss it and you try to deserve other things and you can't just do it to get to get thrown back to the painful sensation in the knee in the stomach where everything is in your body. They have the usually the opposite effect. They throw you out. If you knew how to float couple of feet above the ground. I mean, sometimes people come in late a shin and they say I never have any Pleasant Sensations in the body. I just have pain and this it's never the case. What's true is that when you have pleasant sensation, you don't notice them because the usual effect of feeling something very Pleasant View out. You start kind of imagining. Hey, what if I win the lottery in 11 million dollars, I do that. I'll do that and you lose connection with what at the time that you're having these very pleasant.

You're having very pleasant Sensations in the body, but you don't notice it.

And it's it's ice on it. Is it harder to work and to see what's actually happening there?

But it's even more important than kind of noticing and working with with with the painful sensation. When most Indian most of our I would say that the really difficult problems they begin with the pleasant Sensations that you know, we become so attached to them that the moment they are gone. Most of the time people don't have very painful experiences. Most of the time you shall be satisfied. It's because you are missing or craving for some very pleasant experience, which is just about there and you'll not willing to settle for the kind of old and boring thing that you do have. I want to rewind to your description of your current life compared to your just say pre-fame life, which seems to be similar in many ways. You've been able to preserve the space to do what you do best day of this team.

have this this husband is very good at saying no you have personal assistants or a very good at saying no and

too many people listening who have achieved some modicum of success. I think they will listen with great Envy because very often whether they are artists whether they are businesspeople what made them successful is often the first thing to get crowded out by the new attention and success that they received aside from luck cuz perhaps are some luck and chance involved in meeting pursue then became your husband. Were there any decisions or are there any

Decisions are Frameworks or anything at all that has helped you to preserve the space that you have Vision was to keep them invitation first. Like when I plan my day on a plane my ear. It's the first thing I put in the calendar is the meditation Retreats and everything else has to find Space around that.

And that was a very easy for the conscious decision and the very important decisions that that's really worked any in a bit similar way also to keep time for my old friends to keep time for my family and understanding that this is kind of a marathon race and didn't notice print something very important happens. And you book is coming out that we have are there is a lot of important things to okay so I can change my routines for a while. But over the long run you have to keep these kind of basic blocks in Tanked did this was a very conscious decision in my case. It worked also too kind of remember what's really important for you in life for me. I think maybe no one on the personal level.

I really want to understand life to understand the world. What's happening? I noticed quite early. That's most of kind of the big events that I'm participating like conferences and and so forth and the important people I meet They Don't Really contribute much to that. They don't seem to understand the life of a person supposed to rain tonight in the big conferences. They never talk about these things. You know, they talked about the global economy on the deeper level.

What's actually happening here eat some I won't get any answers from from there. You know, it's I don't think it's a coincidence. If you look at the whole span of human history and almost none of the important political leaders of humankind made a significant philosophical contribution.

To you and so you have a few exceptional. I don't know Marcus Aurelius or something like that, but generally speaking you would have thought that from their vantage point. They see something that ordinary Mortals don't they make believe that you reach the top because I have some very keen insight into human nature and if they have something inside they keep it very very secret.

Who are some of the people you respect could be past or presents for really?

Seeing or speaking what is going on on the deeper levels thinkers and writers that influence me great. Let's start there really influenced me a lot of his book The Wealth of the Selfies. I think one of the most important books I read in life one is most difficult books. Also, I mean if people take this is the kind of reading recommendation, they should be warned it to its really tough going to very very dense. But if you make it is it really worth it off course, I was very influenced by my meditation teacher everything going, This is how we buy any books superhero to just bye-bye, bye-bye the guidance. I mean in my first thoughts on the course and having the best guy

Really gets it. He really understands. What was happening the did this was something quite surprising for me to see that sounds like good friends have some insight into What's Happening Here books. That influenced me. I'm not sure if this is kind of an answer the question. But are we we are free free to meander. This is we don't have time constraints. They realize it's that it extremely difficult to share.

The really deep inside you have about life.

That's very often. They are in the nonverbal level.

And in any case my impression is that most of the inner world of most humans is never shirt. They never talk about it because they don't even have the words and don't have the audience. I mean most of what happens to you deep down during the day your spouse probably doesn't know your parents don't know your children don't know your friends don't know even you don't know if you don't really make the effort.

one of them

Qualities of great art no just writing but different kinds of all did it really gives words that you know, what you feel something for me maybe for years and you have no idea how to communicate it and then you read a phone or you see a TV show and yes, this is exactly what I'm feeling and I never knew how to communicate.

So that's why it was a very difficult to kind of know you meet somebody and you don't really know what's going on inside them and to what extent they understand. I don't understand their life or life in general though. It is very very hard to say, but did you also underscores something that I've thought about a lot recently which is quite unfair to expect other people to understand you fully when you don't understand yourself fully on your own patient of people sometimes because

Because we have trouble understanding ourselves. We have this hope that somebody will lend us a hand and we have the experiences most of us. If we came from loving families when your kids the world people. They're like our parents who did exactly that for us even on the most annoying child is crying and the mother would say what you just tired just go to sleep and you think you should know that you're tired but no, I mean, I don't know it and then somebody who really understand them comfortable. Just go to sleep.

End in in my writing I engage a note with the issue of the future of AI in surveillance. And I think one of the key fantasies with a i and surveillance is that the algorithm was Bill do that for us.

That's what this will this ties into one of the books that has had a big impact on you. If I remember correctly, right? I mean the Aldous Huxley Brave New World. It's really really really deep impact on me because I got it.

The interesting thing about Brave New World. It's kind of you know, it's on the surfaces of dystopia.

But when you kind of ask yourself, why what's wrong with Brave New World? It's very difficult to say it.

To find out what I mean. Everybody seems to be satisfied. Everybody seems to be happy. There is a system in place that's understand you very very deeply and make sure that you'll never be in great pain on there. Any any great misery.

And it's it's a very in indecent inoculated for like it. It's brother book 1984.

It's a very simple book in this sense. Let's 1984 describes a terrible terrible. Dystopia. The only question is how do we avoid getting there?

But Brave new ones you read it and it's it for me. I kind of think walking. So what's what's really wrong with it, and it's not easy to answer this question.

Yeah, they if they should have uncanny feeling that something is not quite right that you can't put words to it's very similar to the feeling of something that is quite right that you can't put words to the thing gets reflected in good art and go both ways number of the things that I've read in preparation for this from various profiles. There's one that said you prefer television to novels. There is another that it's give the example better than the same profile of you swimming is part of your routine in the summer and listening to non-fiction books via headsets, but there I guess they're resonant they deal with the vibration of the usual your plugs and water would fit in somehow all the time and would ruin it. And then finally I came across this gadget that you can just put it on your forehead and something has a mysterious way. It works better and you actually hear better.

Then when you put it in your ears sweet, I would swing back and forth back and forth listening to I don't know why I listen to say to shoshana zuboff surveillance capitalism, but a swimming lesson 14 my pool with it with the dolphin headset for the residents. That's amazing. So I'll bet it's a forehead headset. Perhaps do you recall what type it is by any chance? I know this is getting into the minutiae. We can figure it out later if it's very important and it's just it just isn't in the next room. So I get it will take me a second if you want. It is the most important thing in the world, but I'm curious.

So it's this is how it looks by the way. Oh, wow. All right just connected to the dorsal snorkel that goes across the forehead. So you don't have to rotate. I don't have to put my head back and forth all the time by finis Duo Phoenix f i n i s. All right, we'll find it put in the show notes. Thank you for grabbing that in those examples in these profiles. It seems like you are not consuming much written fiction. But Brave New World is fiction fast becoming reality. Maybe also like you said philosophy disguised as science fiction. Are there other fiction books that you have found to have an impact on you or you're thinking or do you do consume much in terms of

Guide to the Galaxy I also were a part of Hawaii. I write a work that I'm not saying it is the kind of love. I don't know metaphor something the diesel fuel in a different way. This is one of the ideas of gave me the inspiration to kind of tell us a penis into a graphic novel which we might discuss later on if we have the time that you can play with the form. I think it's alto sax Lee when he came to ride Brave New World he had these philosophical issues. He wanted to discuss and maybe I need venting money. Maybe it wasn't like this at all, but my impression is the teeth will it will actually be easier and more interesting and engaging instead of

You know having this formal logical arguments and instead of having these thought experiments which philosophers lost so much why not have any entire book which is 1 long. Experiment and see where it takes me and I think that The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is basically something similar deep philosophical issues, but in a much more fun way, then your typical philosophy book, I could not agree more. I just literally a few weeks ago. Listen to The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy narrated by Stephen Fry who's incredible narrator for the first time and

You're right that it has so many what otherwise could be very sterile thought experiments and Concepts embedded into this entertaining narrative. And I remember one line. They're talking about the I want to say, he's the president of the Galaxy or something along those that's right and they they they talk about how successful he was and how people have the mistaken notion that the job of the president is to wield power, but that's not the job of the president's to distract from those are wielding power and just these short nuggets contain so much to chew on and it's it's really an effective way of providing people with footholds in a way. No holds the same ways TV like I think that's Black Mirror at least found the episode in Black Mirror. I was some of the best discussions that I I've seen of certain dangerous tendencies in in

Technology has some episodes of I was just fun. I don't know life San Junipero. I think it's extremely good episode but it describes the reality which is so far away from us that it's relevant to any of the discussions here, but you look at it if you start nosedive.

About the Indian name of the Chinese got the idea for the social credit system from nosedive. I need such a powerful and important episode of you. Look at how was it called? The one with the cartoon figure that became president and it's almost became a m p blueberry something and you don't discuss before from this was before this whole wave and this was so prophetic was really an AI mean when I walked it for the first time in 2013 and then I watched it later like 5 years later than these guide of geniuses. I mean, how did they say? It's coming? Yeah. It's very it's it's a real sweet spot of near-term or not too distant future kind of technological extrapolation. I love black mirror and I always encourage people to watch at least three episodes because I would say maybe one out of three or one out of

Or just completely Miss up for me. They don't look at it. So strike a cord. So you have to your sample size has to be a few episodes and I'll usually strike on something. I do have any other way we are going to talk about sapience a graphic history because I have a lot of questions about it before we get there. I have to actually I'll stick with one question before we get there in that is any other television series to be documentaries also or movies that you think our intelligence examples of philosophy or thought experiments in Disguise going back to The Usual Suspects of Science Fiction. I thought there was a very intelligent and you know, Loki

Exploration of some of the potential of a I I don't like these movies when the robot Rebellion kill everybody the wrong Sears. It encourages the wrong discussion. I don't think within the next 20-30 years the robots are going to repellent kill everybody but there are other dangers much more or less. So whether it's the job market weather surveillance in a relationship and I told his hair was a very in in this way very intelligent movies avoided the usual Trump and it it goes back exactly what we were discussing earlier. We have a deep yearning. There's somebody out there in the world would really understand us like we go about life and we hope that our parents will it was $10 a tile teachers?

Offers I will keep somebody please understand me and so many people it never happens. But there are many hidden Corners within themselves that they are unable to communicate them fully and there is nobody out there that's reaches out and in kind of engages those Corners in them and there is now with technology On The Rise which could fulfill that dream and this is extremely attractive and extremely frightening at the same time and Harry Sports on I mean what happens when there is an algorithm that constantly observed you not just what you do, but also what's happening inside your body and you really understand your personality your mood you're lying so disliked, you know, you come back home from work and you're grumpy and your husband doesn't notice it but the computer does notice it I mean and what kind of world is it?

What kind of relationships will there be when computers and objects understands you better than the people in your life?

And that's a fascinating and frightening a question. And I think it's very realistic question. We are very unlike the robots rebelling and killing everybody the moment that your small refrigerator knows you better than your husband is not burnt out in the future.

We should be talking more about that and I would like to see more movies or TV shows more science fiction novels that explore these kinds of questions.

If if you haven't read any of Ted chiang's work Chiang his at his a compilation of short stories called exhalation and he has another collection of short stories. I think you would absolutely love them. One of his short stories was turned into believe it was a rival about the protagonist. Who is this female linguists who decodes the league graphic language of these aliens who arrived on earth and its about temporal perception. It's these are really really really incredible stories of Ted Chiang Chiang and exhalation. I think I think you'd enjoy it. Let's talk about savings a graphic history book before we get to that isn't to say that the word understand and the concept of understanding is also fraught with difficulties and I think that that is part of what a I will also demonstrate that had knowing quite a few people that work on AI. What does it be in 4

Let's just say a computer or a refrigerator to pass the Turing test so effectively that you feel understood.

I don't believe that we are near the point when they will have Consciousness and if by understand you mean the kind of inner feeling that we have when we understand that that's not the case. I think we all know that neither but understands in the sense that able to predict our behavior and respond right in a way which will be more appropriate than the people around us. That's what I mean by that is it weaker definitely am not thinking about the conscious experience of understanding. It's about just predicting could be manipulating but most importantly just a kind of reacting to us.

In a way this Will finds appropriate more appropriate than the way the snow will get so used to having these computers and robots. That means to how we feel that we might become even more irritated with the humans who don't feel we don't react. You don't understand how we feel about we are going in the right way. So many people like everybody of open self-centered but I don't get what's my husband is feeling because I'm too focused on my own my own feelings. One of the reasons the computers would be better than humans in this is that they don't have feelings. The refrigerator doesn't have any expectations in life from you.

He had no dreams. No Phantom. Nothing is so it refrigerated can be a hundred percent focused on what you feel. It has no feelings of its own so it can't be angry. Nothing sounds like you have an episode of Black Mirror to write what's the point on some level we're talking about philosophy disguised as fiction thought exercise is embedded in to say black mirror in a way that are not just fascinating but also prophetic in some respects sapiens a graphic history. I want to talk about this because I actually have a long history with graphic novels and comic books. I want to be a pencil ER, penciler for about 12 years and used used to be an illustrator long time ago. And then I lived in Japan in high school went to a Japanese school and in Japan unlike in the US there is a long Rich history of

Comic books and graphic novels for adults and also comic books and graphic novels for teaching difficult Concepts telling history and these are extended expansive collections of graphic novels. And I've seen how effective it is because I read some of these when I was in Japan on the history of Judo and other things and I would not have consumed 500 pages of your text. Certainly not Japanese and I think it's an incredibly powerful format how and why did you decide to take sapiens and create this piece of art but also an effective vehicle for perhaps teaching in a different way.

Pasadena should have didn't come from me. It came from David and Danielle the two artists who collaborated with me on this project. They came up with the idea. They wrote some suggestions and I really liked it. It's connected to something that I did want to do for a long time, which is to reach new audiences. I see my name job today bringing Science and History to multiple people who wouldn't necessarily read that traditional science book science. They still want videos like five hundred pages of text with footnotes. It's it's a graphic novel and they do the comics are for kids, but no, it's it's just a different medium is different language.

It enables you to do something. You can't see you. You need to be no cut down the text but there are many things you can do much better in the graphic novel certainly could show things like, you know, what mass of the graphic novel is about the life of hunter-gatherers. So you can just shove it in images instead of long descriptions and image is worth a thousand words in many cases. It's also enabled us to inform it was and I know the most fun project I ever worked on because it was okay. Let's take all the academic inventions of how you write is to ring throw them aside. Let's experiment so it's kind of a series of experiments in how to tell history.

So, you know one part about the evolution of different human species than sapiens neanderthals and so far. It's talk like a reality TV show.

That their defense competition between different human species. Then you have an entire chapter about the how humans caused the extinction of many of the laws of the world as they spread from Africa over the world. And this is sold as a detective movie. We created this fictional detective detective Lopez like Sherlock Holmes real or other the critic a kind of person. She goes around the world and investigate the worst serial killers in history who killed all these big animals and the invention of the first religion is told according to the conventions of superhero action movie. So we created this superhero superhero or fiction who embodies the human ability to invent pictures still resented mythology, and it was really fun working with David and Daniel on that and just saying what what why not we can fly that we can do that. It allowed.

Me and all of us to answer many questions, but we can just ignore in the text. When you droll you have to throw specific things when you write you can write an obstruction when you do all the control struction. So if we since you talked about the connection between Homo sapiens and Neanderthals, and we now know the song sapiens and Neanderthals had sexual relations and even had children because most of us today still carry some Neanderthal genes in all DNA. You can just write that sapiens had sex with neanderthals end of story but in a graphic novel if you want to draw it, you have to make some decisions. I mean, who is the man in who is the woman is a Neanderthal man with the sapience woman or the other way around?

And what about skin color? What about hair color hairstyle? All these questions you come draw a general human must have some skin color must have some hair color. So we have to go back to the literature the scientific literature and investigate and sometimes you find answers. Sometimes you don't and then you have to take into account all the ideological and political issues of race and gender and it's always a huge huge thing to engage with all this and I I found it that is not like, okay. Let's just stay safe in San Antonio stration. Is it completely fresh project? How did you problem-solve when there was a conflict or some tension between the literature and what might dictate

A drawing and these are political sensitivities that exist today how to do how to do think about that or think through those types of decisions. And it was a balancing act. You can't ignore science just for the sake of being politically correct on the other hand. You have to be aware of the political implications of the choices you make I mean, you can't hide behind scientific objectivity because there is no such thing as a completely objective narrative. Just choosing. What is the opening scene and what is the ending scene? It doesn't come from reality. It comes from your political ideology color religious beliefs in a reality that the real reality. It has no beginning an end. No historical event had a beginning and an end and no historical event. Had a phone call.

You know, it's even easier to think about it in terms of movies when you watch a movie. That's about the second world war. So the camera is somewhere and something is in the focus of the of the short. Something is on the side and many things out don't you don't see them at all. Now in reality. There is no camera. There is no camera hanging above planet Earth the color of History which points in a particular direction and this is the center of events in this is the day the sidelines, you know, you can tell the second world war Churchill is the main hero hitler-stalin appearing on song If you if you seen and millions of Chinese the dog in the world never came in the door.

And you can do any Tire World War II movie just about a single Chinese village now, both are true. And what do you choose is the first thing you buy the reality it reflects very often political and ideological and also artistic choices. When you go back to the Stone Age, it's even more complicated because there's so many things. We just don't know means that the basic things. We don't know what family structure was like you have all these discussions about what is the natural human family lot of people believe a man and woman to have kids and a dog. This is a traditional family. This was always the case, but we know that even in recent history, this was not always the case. The case today.

In many countries close to fifty percent of children. Don't grow up in such a family today. You go back to the Middle Ages. It's not the structure of everybody you go to the biology to other chimpanzees don't leave like that. Gorillas don't live like night rangatangs don't live like it like that. So how did humans live 50,000 years ago? And the answer is we don't know we have evidence from the Stone Age we have tools but the tools don't tell you that what was the family structure? You have cave paintings in one of the interesting things about thousands and thousands of cave paintings from the Stone Age single image of a family

The look of Madness Deluxe of horses the lot of eye bags. There are some humans also mostly stick stickers, but there isn't a single image from the Stone Age that you can say. Look, that's how they depicted family. What does it mean? Why do people throw all these elephants and never bother to draw their own family? I don't know what it means, but it's it's interesting.

I need to give us the freedom about how to deal with his issues. So like I don't know we have this one scene about neanderthals and Neanderthals had the big revolution in the last 10 years, but understanding of them has completely changed in the last 10 years because of so many new evidence. We have both from genetics but also from artifacts and archeological records. And where is 20 years ago. Maybe they were still this out difficult case people primitive and brutal and and things like that now they have a very positive image.

We have not because we have the genes in DNA but also because we have evidence that they took her off of a wounded people of elderly people of disabled people. They had too much more sophisticated technology and maybe even out in concert anywhere soon. So we have depicted in the graphic novel this change in image in this scene that you see this to me. I'm just so guys sitting in the office of PR consultant and the pr consultant has on the wall. This old fashioned image of an undertow laboratory undertale with a big stick and dragging a female by by the hair and it was a big X over this image in the pr consultant says good brand for the 19th century 21st century. You need to lighten up your brand and the two neanderthals say here's what you know, actually we do all gay.

Obviously, we don't have any evidence that they were the word gay neanderthals. I mean our scientific understanding of sex and gender today indicates that it did the word gay neanderthals. But if you ask for The Smoking Gun Show me a grave from 50000 years ago with two men together only then I believe then of course we don't have this but we have we have we don't have a lot of direct evidence for sex in the Stone Age so we know that they use in the undertones had sex but maybe also the world cases of sapience men having sex with a Neanderthal man could be no evidence in the genes, of course, but maybe we have this autistic license that we can show that it makes sense.

Ulta in this is baby it going down rabbit hole, but if you look at the behavior of of chimpanzees and there's some evidence of interactions certainly exists, if you're looking at the current de precursores innocence, what is your hope for these graphic novels and they're coming out of four volumes. What do you anticipate our hope the spacing to be of those those always hopeful one every year the name challenges the drawing. I mean, this is Danielle's job and I drove like a five year old kid that mean they can depend on me for anything when it comes to the drawing any takes a lot of time to grow, you know, these hundreds of of images and also it goes back and forth because he Daniel draws an image of couple of evidence indicated actually the spear points will not like you depicted and then I'm in the middle of the political issues. That's okay.

Thermobalance gender relations in this Imaging text to Daniela mean Institute to drive it again and it takes a long time. So I guess it would be one volume each year and the big hope that it will reach new audiences that may not read, you know, a 400-page text about the history of humankind, but would be interested in would find it fun and engaging when it's sold in a graphic novel. I've seen the graphic novel and it's really well done. I have to say, you know, I've I've I've read I have probably 5000 to 10000 comic books about that. I've saved and poly bag over the years and I've collected

Everything from Sandman in the US to dozens of different graphic novels in Japan. That's very well. So you and your team deserve a lot of credit for that. I'd like to ask a question about your mission statement. Now, I don't know if you would call it a mission statement. Maybe it is so this is from The New Yorker profile from this year and it describes how your mission statement reads as follows. Then this is on a bulletin board in your office. Keep your eyes on the ball focus on the main Global problems facing Humanity learn to distinguish reality from illusion care about suffering and I get served there was previously Embrace ambiguity of that got scratched out. So could you explain the origins of this mission statement, please?

It's a couple of mission statements as we expand. Our team is becomes more difficult to get everybody on the same page to make sure that everybody knows each person has a different personal and professional background. And so when it was just me or just my husband didn't mean there was no needs to write down these official mission statements, but then you have 15 employees then it becomes important.

And we had a long discussion and like a back and forth also with all the employees and what we came up with. This is several kind of General guidelines to to keep in mind and maybe the most important thing is that we see all tasks as helping to focus the global conversation on the most important issues.

Because one of the big problems of the 21st century people of flooded by enormous amount of information. It's not like in the past when information was cursed in the problem was how to get it now. It's the opposite and you just don't know what to pay attention to those back to my practice of meditation of how to stay focused and it's kinda Flink the personal practice who is the global project we don't see ourselves as providing Solutions.

But just kind healthy to steer the global conversation in the most important directions. You have such a historical context for determining the relative weight to assign two different events or phenomena in the world is indicated or described in the example of terrorist attacks in their cultural or directions a cultural historical horrible. Yes, the theater and graphic nature of it is very compelling to the human psyche. Which would also be true saying shark attack, right? If a 12 year old boy attacked by shark.

On the East Coast United States would be in every newspaper and there would be a huge response probably dramatic overharvesting of sharks. So on and so forth but in the sweep of human history its importance has is close to zero negligible. What are some of the more important the main Global problems facing Humanity from your perspective sings the three big ones I'll nuclear war which, you know people tend to connect with the Cold War but they are still here in the next few months. But if tensions in the world continues to grow then it will become a gain and major issue and it is an existential issue out of things can destroy us with nuclear war can so we have to keep it in mind all the time. The second big thing is ecological collapse. It's not just climate change that gets most of the headlines lately many other things also like loss of biodiversity.

Destruction of habitat and so forth but generally speaking. Yes, we are seeing is nuclear war ecological collapse is already began is all around us and it's threatens again essential danger threatens the foundations of our civilization, I guess that some people would survive it. But if it if things really go bad with the economic and political implications of it, it could cost the lives of billions of people and the third big one and I think most complicated is technological disruption the consequences of disruptive Technologies, especially artificial intelligence and bioengineering it's the most complicated challenge.

because you know his nuclear war in climate change and ecological collapse You can disagree whether it's true or not, but

Everybody agrees what needs to be done about it stupid. Nobody thinks it's having a nuclear war with the good idear. Nobody thinks the climate change is a good idea. Maybe some people deny it but they don't say it's good option. It's much more complicated because it has a lot of positive potential a lot of people positively wish to see greater and faster technological disruptions. And there is no agreement whatsoever about what we should do with Technologies like AI or like bioengineering dreams. People out of nightmares of other people, so it's very complicated like a logical collapse. It's not the future scenario. It's already happening all around us.

And I think the pace is staunch. That's it may need to some people it sounds like crazy but I strongly believe that given the Technologies we are now developing within a century or two at most all species will disappear the why don't say nothing in the end of the 21st 22nd century. They are Earth will still be dominated by Homosapien. I think given the immense power with the clothes Isabelle developing. Seuss an hour is only one scenario with is the other technology will destroy Humanity.

And I think it's less likely but still forcible. The more likely scenario is that it will change Humanity in a profound way that we will use AI in bioengineering to change Homo sapiens into create new kinds of beings that will be much more different from us, then we'll different from neanderthals or from chimpanzees.

He just one example. I think it is possible that we will create the first in organic life-forms after 4 billion years of organic evolution. So destruction of a species is the changing of species into something else. But what kind of thing it will be. We have to be extremely careful about that. It won't necessarily be a better version of us could be much much worse. Could you give a bit more detail around the new in organic life-form and see in your mind's eye if we change for the worse in some Tekken abled way deliberately or by accident wouldn't like that look like to you.

Song with the second question of what it would look like, you know, you could use whatever technology to increase the efficiency of people the intelligence of people at the price of things like autistic sensitivity or like spiritual death. I mean if you ask armies if your cooperation if you want governments, what do you need from your employees from your soldiers? It was all we want people to be more efficient. We want people to reach to be more logical we want people to be more disciplined and if you have the technology the new engineer such people, even if it's, usually when you improve something that's too, the price of something else and things like animal spiritual death. What kind of army needs soldiers face to child are so if you leave it to the corporations in armies, it's very likely but once you have technology to change Youmans it will I would say

Andre them and not operate them make them more efficient soldiers or employees of whatever but it will make them kind of food or beans lesser beings. So that's about just one scenario of what does it mean to downgrade people now as regards to in organic life-forms, you know for 4 billion years everything on the planet was the recent bacteria or Nana's or 3 or you know, the laws of organic chemistry now is drawing of a eye we might have a chance to be agnostic about it. I'm not sure but it is possible that in a couple of decades. We will be able to create item completely in organic beings.

Or at least pass organic Park in organic cyborgs, and this will be if it happens. It will be the biggest revolution in the history of life since the beginning of Life much much bigger than the creation of Mammoth so that the creation of mammals are humans because it's a completely different game. Once you're no longer subject to organic chemistry. We can't even begin to imagine what it means because our imagination is the product of organic chemistry. So if you have a kind of intelligence, which is not based on organic chemistry, you know, it can be anything. If you look over the next to talk about then I guess the 22nd century and the prevalence dominance her existence of homo sapiens. If we look over the next 50 years just to choose an arbitrary time frame of nuclear war ecological collapse or these unforeseen.

Accidents or mistakes of high technology which scares you the most or which do you worry about the most because of what I said earlier that it's the most complicated that it's not enough to be kind of animal good and wise to deal with the first to be very hard to deal with the first two but the third one is really complicated because there is no agreement on the go with the first two at least there is an agreement on the goal. And then that just makes it very very complicated also know the first dude nobody is actively working to make it happen sooner and even the people who deny climate change they are not in favor of climate change, but we may I and bioengineering there are some of the most powerful people and organizations and governments incorporate.

Using the world. They are extremely busy making it happen faster. And it's awesome. We don't have a framework even to think about it properly. So is a thing to another PlayStation. I think this is where I can contribute the most isn't trying to entangle this kind of completely new Strength just a few more questions, then I'll I'll let you get going so that we're separated by quite a few time zones when you are thinking about these threats, perhaps harkening back to your times reading Aldous huxley's work and here were talking about Brave New World and not Island spread very different descriptions, although some parallels when you feel the potential for

These various types of collapse or disaster. What keeps you going? Where do you find the lights to go to question you able to deal with your own mortality as every person has two on some level then you should be able to deal with the potential mortality of the entire species. I mean, it's still part of the ogs individuals come and go Nations come and go or swingtown species come and go 99% of the species that evolved on planet Earth are gone for one reason or another Homo sapiens. Also in the same terminal in the best scenario. I don't think Homo sapiens will be around in two or three hundred years.

The best scenario is that homo sapiens will disappear but in a peaceful and gradual way and be replaced by something better

I don't think there is any chance whatsoever that people that look like us will just continue to have lives like us in 200 years that it will be in 200 years the professor of History sits sitting in heaven a podcast talk with somebody in it. It's not going to happen. I mean that the changes are going to be too big.

So maybe goes back again to the practice of meditation and the realization that change is the only certainty in in life. So you might as well tuned into the changes that you're at least aware that you're responding to your reactions to things outside and not the outside itself, but you've always been a lot of fun for me to connect with you. And of course, I will link everything in the show notes for people the volume. One of you are serious sapiens a graphic history is out now volume one can be found and I'll include links to that in the show notes from a 1 to 10. Blog / podcast. Your website is y + Harari Facebook is prof. Yuval. Noah. Harari Twitter Harari underscore Duval Instagram, Yuval underscore Noah underscore Arielle provide all those who do not remember them. Is there anything else that you would?

Like to say to my audience ask of the audience suggest to the audience before we wrap up today for most people. So I hope you benefited from investing them in listening to us likewise and I can certainly speak for myself and saying that I enjoyed it quite a lot and definitely check out Ted Chiang exhalation. I think they live it. I live a bunch of notes for things that I will be checking out and to everyone listening till next time. Thank you for tuning in.

Hey guys, this is Tim again. Just a few more things before you take off. Number one. This is five. Bullet Friday. Do you want to get a short email for me? And would you enjoy getting ashore you up for me? Every Friday? Is that provides a little morsel of fun for the weekend and five Fridays every short email rice. Share. The coolest thing is I found or that I've been pondering over the week that could include favorite new albums that have discovered it could include gizmos and gadgets and all sorts of weird shit that I've somehow dug up in the other world of the esoteric as I do. It could include favorite articles that I have read and that I've shared with my close friends for instance and it's very short. It's just a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend. So if you want to receive that check it out just go to four hour work week., That's four hour work week. Com all spelled out and just drop in your email and you will get the very next one and if you sign up I hope you enjoy.

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