Hidden Brain - Between Two Worlds

Determination, hard work and sacrifice are core ingredients in the story of the American dream. But philosopher Jennifer Morton argues there is another, more painful requirement to getting ahead: a willingness to leave family and friends behind. This week, we explore the ethical costs of upward mobility.

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This is hidden. Brain. I'm Shankar vedantam doing better than your parents having a better education living a better life. This is University seen as a good thing.

But a century ago a poet named Christos mutnansky wrote a parable that raises important questions about the nature of upward Mobility the top of the stairs is about an impoverished young man standing at the foot of a marble staircase. He's gazing up by the wealthy people above him food to eat and are really suffering. This is philosopher Jennifer Morton.

Blocking the young man to send to the party above is the Devil Himself ask him if he wants to get closer to the top the devil wants to bribe the young man protest. I am poor are using Rags he says, but I'm willing to give up my life.

The devil says he doesn't want the young man's life. He wants to replace his hearing with a new pair of ears.

the young man in Greece

And so the devil lets him walk up a few steps.

No, he can no longer hear the people below hormoaning out of hunger and the stress of the stairs to go higher the devil asked him to trade in his eyes for a new pair and he can no longer see the people moaning down below and who are suffering the top the devil asked for the final bribe. He wants to replace the young man's memory and its heart the young man protest for the devil assures him a better heart and a new memory.

The young man is now at the very top his face is radiant. The crown CiCi's below are in fancy clothes and their moons are now hymns.

So by the time he gets to the top and he is there with the other wealthy and well-to-do people he can no longer even really recognize the problems down below where he came from the young man has forgotten the people. He left behind as a parable. It's a powerful warning about the dangers of wealth and luxury.

But in the real world not all who climb that marble staircase are indifferent to the problems. They've Left Behind many of that are deeply torn about what it means to climb the economic and social ladder.

This week on hidden brain. We can sit at the complex trade-offs involved in climbing the ladder of upward Mobility.

Determination Enterprise and sacrifice have long been core ingredients in the story of the American dream another song PS ingredient in the story of upward Mobility.

A willingness to make ethical trade-offs. She doesn't mean lying or cheating but something subtler and far more consequential.

Jennifer Martin welcome to Hidden brain Shankar

So what are some of the classic ingredients we recognized in Strivers the people who are on this path to Upward Mobility? What are the what are the ingredients that we think go into the American dream?

For the most part it's drivers are as you might expect ambitious hard-working smart, but also I think are willing to make trade-offs in the pursuit of those submissions and some of those trade-offs in some cases are quite difficult and painful.

You spent much of the last decade teaching at a school that wanted to give people a shot of the American dream. I understand students at the City College of New York don't usually come from the from the 1% Most of our students come from working class families immigrant families. Are there immigrants themselves many of them come from families. They make less than $20,000 a year and they see City College as a ticket to the middle class to have better lives than the ones that their parents have more than maybe the people in their neighborhood half and the imagination of yours for a long time. So, you know when it started it was the school that accepted Jewish immigrants when they weren't accepted elsewhere used to be free.

And it was called the Harvard of the poor by many because it was some place where the brightest and smartest kind of working-class kids could go and really have a shot at transforming their lives through education Jennifer found it more than 3/4 of the students at city college what people of color and usually have with the first in their families to go to college but as exciting as it was to teach these drivers Jennifer said she regularly heard from students dealing with a variety of crisis on the homefront.

Family drama in the words of one student uncovered with this family drama phrase meant and what it meant for many of my students who feel comfortable enough with me to share was that they had families who were going through a lot. For example people whose parents were getting kicked out of housing or food themselves were homeless. I had a student whose mother became the stables and couldn't work anymore and the disability checks weren't enough to cover all their expenses. And so she had to work full-time as well as attend College full-time.

I've had students who had to do childcare for extended family because childcare fell through or a cousin couldn't afford childcare when they were going to a job interview. And so what I saw was there my students were playing all sorts of caretaking and financial support rules for their families and extended families and often even members of their community and they worth having all of that on their shoulders as well as trying to study for exams write papers and do well in college. Lots of students face challenges in college lot of students make sacrifices. And in fact, this is true of the workplace as well. You know, the banker who's working 80 hours a week might be giving up a social life the musician whose trying to get into the local Orchestra might be sacrificing, you know her health or or sleep. But but the challenges that you are students were facing found qualitatively different to you and you went to that they wasn't

Physical component to these challenges. What do you mean by that? What happens with Strivers is that in order to succeed in higher education often have to deal with the fact that their parents families communities need them and it becomes very hard for them to navigate trying to succeed in college and to be carrying sister's Sons daughters friends or community members, you know, so if you're going to classes and studying for exams, you might not have enough time to for example, take care of a little cousin who needs care or take your grandmother to the hospital. And so what happened says that the students end up feeling torn between doing the things that would seem to be required.

Say a good grandson and doing the things that are required to be a successful student or sense was that these trade-offs of these sacrifices. The students were being asked to make involve sacrifices about their families or that communities perhaps even their identities and your sense was that in many ways the sacrifices involved and ethical theory of why ethics Jennifer

yeah, I think often we don't necessarily think about ethics as playing our roles here, but I think whenever a person is caught between trying to figure out what the right thing to do is when on the one hand they feel the obligation or the desire to help somebody that they love and on the other they also have fears that desire to succeed in their own path their balancing and trading off against each other too important and valuable that mentions of what a good and flourishing life would entail

And I think what's particularly sad about these cases that Strivers will often internalized some of the decisions they make and think of themselves as I was a bad song about sister about brother or bad friend because I ended up going to class or studying for my exam instead of being there for this person that I love and and that's I think the really kind of poignant sand and difficult ethical position that's drivers are in.

So you decided to explore the site, you're not just about your students but more broadly. And in fact one of these case studies, I think might and captured it really. Well the ideas you're talking about. I want you to describe a few of these kids stories to me a young man whom you call Todd told you he grew up in Atlanta. Tell me the circumstances of Todd's childhood.

Todd grew up in a predominantly African-American low-income neighborhood of a planta and grew up with his mom who was in and out of work and with his grandparents in his grandparents home. His whole family had been well connected to this neighborhood. So his mom had gone to the local public school his cousins left in the neighborhood and his grandparents home was kind of a hub for his extended family and friends in the neighborhood. And so his family was very well integrated into that Community now Todd was going to the public school, but he didn't like it because he was teased for us. He said trying to be white what that meant for him was that he was trying to get good grades and do well and he felt that the students were teasing him and blowing him on.

Basis of bad Todd's mother decided at some point that Todd needed to leave at school because the teacher had gotten stabbed in the school. And so she thought Todd needed to go to a different school. She then found a friend who lived in a more wealthy suburb of Atlanta and who allowed them to use her address in order for Todd to go to a Suburban magnet school. So they lied to get Todd to go to this different school and tots life change pretty dramatically at that point the school offered him academic opportunities that he didn't have his local public school. Most of the people that he went to school with were middle class for upper middle-class the sons and daughters have doctors and dentists on and so on and everybody at this school was college-bound, which was not true at his public school and sometimes started Living kind of tool.

He would go to the Suburban magnet school and have friends who were more ethnically diverse. The school had been as he described at 100% black. The school was there were a lot of white students much wealthier students were academic opportunities and then he would come home and be back in his neighborhood and Todd describe kind of feeling and sometimes ashamed about where he came from and hiding that from his school friends and his school friends parents.

Are eventually picked up basically from his friends how to apply to college and was the first person in his family to go to college College where he went to college, but he would still go back home. So he was driving distance from home. He would still go back home and visit his grandparents and try to stay connected to his community but little by little less. Starts to succeed in college. She starts to distance himself from his family and then when his grandparents died, he starts going home unless unless one start a graduate from college. You mentioned that after his grandparents died. He started to lose some ties to his home Community talk to me little bit about that you write about how he he was in touch with some people but some of those conversations became very awkward and difficult. Why was that

Censorship with a federal government and moved to the Northeast he was so call home to talk to his sister, especially but those conversations got very difficult because his sister was always complaining about Todd not sending enough money home. So Todd had started to send money back to his family as soon as he started working but his sister thought it was never enough and so the conversations got very tense and it would make it hard for Tata want to call his sister because he thought we're going to have another argument about money. And so this led to further distancing every step of the way. You can see how Todd was disengaging or felt like he had to disengage from things of a very core to him as a person in his family is community his identity when he was in school back in his old neighborhood, you know, moving to the magnet school meant a new set of friends with a new set of social norms.

When he moved to college at mantid opting the norms and attitudes off his peers and college which would in some way is very different from the norms and attitudes of his friends and neighbors back home. And as he eventually started working he found that conversation with his family became very fraught because the family should have relied on him to support them and he was happy to do that to some extent but he felt like all they want to talk about is money and you can see it each tap how Todd's connection with his past with his roots. Is it becoming disengaged sounds around money that were difficult stem for his family.

Not really understanding Todd situation to their eyes. He was making a lot of money. But of course he was living in DC and have to have an apartment and there were a lot of things that were kind of expensive MTG this middle-class life and from his family's perspective that didn't quite make sense. So there is a disconnect also an understanding from not just him kind of becoming more and more like the people he went to college with her. He was working with but his family not fully understanding this new world that Todd was had entered

The interesting thing is if you look at Todd's live from the outside front from our perspective, you might say and I hear someone who started out life with with the deck stacked against him and he figured out a way to get himself a good education and get himself a great job and he's clearly, you know, he's that he's the standard-bearer for the American for the American dream. And what were Nazi in some ways what's happening out of the surface all these things you're talking about.

Yes, and I think what we're not seeing is that ask Todd lose his friends and his relationships with his family gets train. It's also true that the community he grew up in those people. He was friends with his extended family. His family is losing somebody to

I think if we look at it from both sides the ethical cost at Todd Pace also reflect an ethical cost paid by the community in that family and those friends.

Drivers are often told the Treetops you make are good the person and social relationships. You will form in your new life will compensate you for the ones you have sacrificed when we come back why the logic of exchange and transaction breaks down when it comes to our relationships and our identity.

Jennifer Martin is a philosopher at the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill in her book Moving up without losing your way. She explores the ethical cost that arrives at the intersection of communities the face concentrated social disadvantage and the Strivers from those communities who are on the path to Upward Mobility.

Jennifer if you are born into a family that is in the bottom ten percent of income spectrum and your black you have a 42% chance of staying in that income band all your life many of your friends and relatives are also very poor to making it from any striver some such a community usually means making it out. Can you talk about this idea for a moment, which is that part of the problem that you're describing has to do with the concentration of disadvantaged notice in communities within the United States, but across the world impulsive fact that they're growing up in communities in which poverty is concentrated what that means is that you're growing up in a family that's poor, but you're also making friends in the building connections and being connected to a community in which everybody is in a similar situation and so you don't have to

What's the develop friendships or relationships with a lot of middle class or upper middle class people and there are a lot of consequences to that. The first said once if you do make it into a college or a middle-class workplace, you might not have had as much experience with the culture and the norm of the middle-class people that populate those faces. And so you might feel like an outsider but it also means that if you're going to access those middle-class jobs and opportunities, you're going to have to leave your neighborhood in order to access them and you're going to have to leave behind the people who you love and care about when you grew up with and staying with your community staying with your friends and your extended family often means being refined to stay in poverty.

If you grew up in a wealthy city or a prosperous Community, you often don't have to leave your neighbors and communities in order to go to a good school or find a great job for someone who grows up in concentrated poverty accessing the kind of educational and career opportunities that would propel them into the middle class requires leaving their community.

A middle-class students in the middle-class suburb who wants to leave to go to a boarding school, or maybe if you know, they have a dream of going to California or something like that. That's a choice there making but not a choice are required to make in order to have the kind of middle-class life that their parents house and the people around them house. So we all love to hear stories of poor students who are the first in their families to go to college, you know, we applaud first generation college students for that great for the determination. We don't usually talk very much about the social and emotional cause they might be paying and I'm wondering if those costs might be behind some of the astonishing statistics you side only 21% of low-income first-generation students were enrolled in college actually finish compared to about 57% of all the students the first generation low-income students face a lot of obstacles in college.

Some of these are purely Financial, right? So it might involve the cost of books or the cost of housing or the cost of food in addition to the cost of tuition, but it might also a kind of sacrifices that their families are able to make to support them through college. So we know that there's a financial component to the fact that students find it hard to finish college but I think something we don't talk about is the four students. It can be very difficult emotionally and psychologically and ethically to make it because they feel torn between helping their families being there for their friends thank next to their communities and succeeding in college and when students feel torn and that way I think sometimes it's very reasonable for them to think. Well, I don't think finishing college is worth everything. I'm Giving Up So, I think

I'm writing this book was to help us understand how someone could be in a situation where potentially they have this opportunity for Upward mobility and then not taking it or dropping out of college because they find that the sacrifices are too much. I'm I think many of us understands that if we were asked to sacrifice our relationships with our friends and family and become disconnected from our community. We might not do so, even if we could make more money and get a better job by doing so

What once you started working on the book one of your best students? So whom you call Carlos? I was eager to tell you his story and some of this had to do with a very troubling series of events involving his brother. Tell me what Carlos told you Jennifer.

Had the kind of story that a lot of other Cyrus he was hardworking smart kid made it into City College, but his brother got accused of rape at one point while Carlos was in college and went to prison and after his brother left person. It was actually very hard on the family to deal with this whole process of his brother going to prison and and trying to find legal aid for him to have a good defense. But then once he came out of prison has his brother develop the mental illness and the mental illness was very hard on Carlos and his mother and an uncle that was kind of like a parental figure in his life. Everybody was finding it really hard to figure out what to do. They couldn't afford the kind of care his brother needed and finally his brother went back to prison and Carlos told me that he felt so guilty about how relieved he

Once his brother went back to prison because obviously he loves his brother. But he also felt like it was really destroying his ability to continue to pursue higher education and to make something of his life dealing with his brother's mental illness so relieved when his brother went back to prison, but you know, someone might tell Carlos, you know, look at it this way once you get a good job and and and move into a nice middle-class neighborhood you're going to make lots of friends and you going to have relationships and in some ways compensate you for the relationships that you might have lost any many ways. This model is the model we have when we think about sacrifices in general, you know, you drive a cheap car today. I know that you can save money to make a down payment on a house tomorrow, but but you are good at relationships don't work this way. Why is that Jennifer?

So the reason that relationships don't fit the second object model of trade-offs is because we love somebody we love that particular person. You know, I have a three-year-old daughter. She's very funny and a little loony is 4 year olds are and imagine that in the you know, one morning I wake up and go into her room and it's not but it's another three year old fits equally funny and he quickly Looney and you might see you now got to take care of of course, I would be devastated if that were to happen and that's because when we love someone and we're attached to them we'd only care about their qualities or the role that they play in our lives we care about them that particular person.

And when we lose that we lose something that a no way cannot be replaced as any parent who has lost a child nose in the most dramatic case, but I think most of us who've maybe lost a friendship know that of course you make new friends and those new friends are the friend that was lost even us you appreciate the new friends that you make and say things when Strivers her losing these relationships or maybe those relationships are getting a weekend upward Mobility play still have a right I think in good reason to more and what they have lost even if there is much to be gained from those losses and of course, you know, we've hinted at this earlier when Strivers leave their homes and communities when the new lives make it difficult for them to retain that ties with those communities.

The losses are not experienced merely by the person who has left in many ways. The losses may be even more acute for the people who have been left behind since that remains in my mind after having worked on this phone guess that I interviewed Strivers, but I also wanted to know more about what their families and communities experience because his friends communities also lost someone invaluable when the striver moved away or when those relationships were fractured by the stress of upward Mobility.

And so I wonder what the families think about that and what the members of the community to stay back think about having lost someone in this way we talk about this idea sometimes in the context of migration where we say another that we called his brain drain, but but I think the point you're making it actually such a point. It's not just about people who are talented leaving the community and going somewhere else. You're also losing someone who was an important relationship in your life. So did another what does an emotional loss in addition to any kind of professional or intellectual loss when someone leaves your community potentially makes your life worse at least for a while, right? And I think I think the pandemic gives us a way to recognize this right because some of us are feeling that lost the distance Springs and how it makes her life's not as rich as they were.

Before and so I think in a way we can relate to that experience of having to distance ourselves from people that we love and care about and and feel that our lives are not as rich as they were in virtuous. Want to move on from their origin but simultaneously feel like they can't you tell the story of a young man from Austin who compared his life to the story of crabs in a bucket tell me that story and what he meant by it.

Yes, that's the name I gave him in the book of strong grew up in a predominantly minority low-income neighborhood of Austin and his life was much more difficult than even the life of Todd who I talked about earlier. So Durant's mother was addicted to drugs and his home life was very chaotic to the point at which in high school. He left home and was basically homeless and living on other people's sofas and he had a bucket in which he kept all his belongings.

And as football coach found the bucket and it's fair to ask him what was going on and Durant old him and basically this coach took him in and help him write a college and Jeron when I talked to him was working at to support exactly the kind of sudden he had been at a college. So he was in his role with something like a residential advisor. And so he had done really well for himself as well. But one of the things that he told me about was that when he went to college he felt like he had to completely reinvent himself like basically start from scratch. He had to change his demeanor how he tries how he talked and he told me that that was because of crabs in a bucket and I had never heard that phrase. So I asked him what he meant and he said well,

When a crab is trying to get out of a bucket the other crops are pulling them down and he was afraid of getting pulled down by staying connected to his community or having any remnants of his old self remain. So he thought I have to leave all of that behind start over and and that's how he made it.

When we come back how to battle the ethical cost of being a striper stay with us.

Philosopher Jennifer Martin Head Start deeply about some of the ethical cost of upward Mobility the pursuit of the American dream. A lot of this comes from her research, but some of it is also informed by her own story and that you were largely raised by a grandmother cake. Can you describe that childhood to me? Please. Pregnant with me when she was 17 and Peru in the 80s was beset by terrorism High inflation political instability. I mostly grew up with my grandmother. But I also had a wealthy onto my mother sister had married a very wealthy man, and I was able to go to a very expensive private school the American School of Lima.

So I wouldn't say that I grew up poor and by the standards of Peru, I think we I grew up middle-class but I definitely had the experience of growing up in a working-class whole my grandmother had emigrated from the mountains of Peru to Lima. She was the secretary very smart loves reason the paper, but she definitely didn't have the kind of education that I saw my friends parents had cuz a lot of my friends were friends from school. So I I grew up in kind of like having a working-class family life and then going to school with extremely wealthy people and some of whom were, you know, the children of the Prime Minister or owners of big companies in our country. And so it was very strange. I grew up straddling these two worlds and that's where my interest in this topic started.

So eventually you make it to the United States you come to college to go to Princeton and and most people might look at your story and say okay she's made it I mean, this is terrific she's at an Ivy League school, that's fantastic. This is her ticket. But anyways, you did not feel such confidence while you were at Princeton. Why not?

There were a lot of aspects of being a good college that I had trouble navigating but I didn't really know who to ask.

The story that sticks out of my mind is that I went to Princeton thinking that I would major in math or philosophy. And so I was placed into a very advanced math class cuz I had done very well in my International Baccalaureate mass m and the the first day I walked into this class. They were 40 or so students. I think there were only two or three other women and the professor never made eye contact with us just wrote on the board and the professor was a mess because he had just won a big and so I was excited about taking a class with the famous mathematician but nothing he said made sense to me and I just assumed immediately. I think a lot of students who are first-generation would in that situation that I just wasn't well prepared and

You know, I should never take another math class again and later. I found out that a lot of the students in that class didn't know what was going on and that they had gone to talk to some of the graduate students at these problems at sessions. Then that my experience in a way. I hadn't been that dissimilar from theirs but I immediately because I think I felt very much like an outsider assumed that it was that and that I just didn't belong there because you know, because drivers have to navigate very different identities. They often become exported. What is sometimes called code switching you have two surnames Morton and galdos. I hope I'm pronouncing that correctly. You said that you were at Princeton Morton became the name of my American Self and don't know the name of my Peruvian South Morton became my dominant Publix South when I live in the United States. Wild Aldo sprang to life again on the streets of Lima during you know your

It's home. Tell me about this experience with coat switching Jennifer.


That I have the last name Wharton.

The name of my first stepdad, but it kind of enabled me to do this thing of compartmentalizing myself in a wave between the person who is more at home in, you know, an American college versus the person Baldo's who carries the name of my family back in Peru who I am when I go back home. So I was always navigating these two worlds and and still do to some extent. Although now that I've been in America for so long. I feel like Morton has overtaken many aspects of my identity and I saw this and when I talked to the Strivers for my book A lot of them felt like they were navigating to identities and we're going back and forth between the person they were at home or with their with their friends they grew up with and the person that they were at work or at college or in their professional lives.

And in this kind of going back and forth can sometimes lead to some tension, right? And I think for some Strivers you might feel inauthentic sometimes in the professional world because there is a part of your identity or the way that you are or the way that you talk that you're withholding you right? I can now make a good living and spend most of my hours and Gage by work that I find fulfilling and rewarding but I'm ever more distant from my country my culture and crucially the people I grew up with tell me about that Jennifer. It sounds like you feel in some ways guilty that that you have become disconnected from your from your roots in Peru feel guilty. Although at the same time. I understand that there were a lot of factors involved in making up so that this was the path upward for me.

But it is hard I think to go back home and to feel this comfortable and not us at home as I used to feel and to have lost touch with many of the people that were a part of my life growing up. And so it is sad to me that I have become so disconnected from the community in which I grow up.

Do you feel like you want to do more for your grandmother and stand she still lives in Peru?

Talk to her fairly frequently. And one of the saddest aspects of the pandemic is not being able to go visit her or to have her come visit me. And I know that one of the sacrifices I made in coming here. It's not being able to be as close to my grandmother and I was extremely close to her growing up. I mean before me she was the world and now it's not be able to be as close to her. It's it's a very painful cost you had a wonderful inside of the book about one way to overcome some of the ethical challenges of upward mobility and it's inside comes from your own family. You said that going back three generations. Now your family has been made up of immigrants people who basically migrated from one place to another often looking for better economic opportunities. I'm wondering if you can describe for me how the frame of emigration might be a defense against some of the ethical dilemmas we've talked about today.

Yes, I think personally The Immigrant narrative that I had really help me navigate challenges that I face as a college student as a graduate student because I think it does a few key thing. So the first thing is that it did knowledge is the value of what you're leaving behind as immigrants know we miss people back home, but the food the culture there are all sorts of things that are valuable there were leaving behind when we immigrated somewhere for economic opportunities and the acknowledgement that can be so important and that's why I think when an educator talking to a student just acknowledging it must be so hard that your brother is going through this and you can't be there for them that can really be quite powerful but I think also immigrants know that they're making these trade-offs like what I was talking very early, you know, you're going to have to go somewhere else to find opportunity and that

Well, to cost at 11 in my feet you might feel sad you might feel lonely in might be challenging to navigate this new culture this new community and it helps the person tell themselves a story about the challenges that they're confronting that it's not just about that and I need to figure out a way to understand the situation so that I can succeed you had the inside of the book that I thought was really interesting you point out that there are lots of peruvians who made a different Choice than you did, you know, they could have left Peru but I chose to stay and you're right. It would be Preposterous for me to blame my fellow Peruvian to choose to stay even if it's a result there educational or economic achievements with diminished yet. It's not unusual to hear or read that same sentiment about those who remain and impoverished communities in the United States. That's a really interesting inside Jennifer talk about that.

Yes, I think when we start to see the sacrifices that people have to make in order to be up early mobile. We start to see why people might not choose that path sewing the case of myself. I saw that there were lots of people who stayed at home and I think it would be Preposterous saying about for me to think that they were being irrational or to blame them or to hold them to account for doing that in some ways. They were Tuesday valuable aspects of their lives over economic advancement, whether that was staying close to family or friends or somewhere where they felt at home and where their identities were valued. And so. I think there's a lot to be said for being deeply rooted and connect it to a place.

And young people who are growing up in concentrated poverty in the United States and then puzzlement that those who might have been able to leave and don't leave us if they're making some sort of mistake, but I don't think in many cases they are making a mistake. They are prioritizing other valuable things in their lives over economic advancement and opportunity. Jennifer Morton is a philosopher at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. She's the author of moving up without losing your way Jennifer. Thank you for joining me today. Hidden brain.

Thank you. This is fantastic Sidecar.

Hidden brain is produced by hidden brain media mid-roll media is our exclusive advertising sales partner around your production team includes Bridget McCarthy, Laura Corral Alton Barnes and Andrew Chadwick. Terrible is our executive producer. I'm hidden brains executive editor.

Aaron suehiro, this week is Alice. You say Alex is a PhD student at the University of Chicago and she did a fellowship at NPR some time ago working remotely from home. Alice went on a great sleuthing Expedition for us identifying a number of gas for our show if you enjoyed our conversation today with Jennifer Morton you have Alice to thank for finding her. We're so grateful for your help Alice and wish you the best of luck as you finish your PhD.

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