SupChina - Sir Danny Alexander on AIIB in a time of crisis

<p>This week on Sinica, Kaiser chats with Sir Danny Alexander, vice president and corporate secretary of the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank and former Liberal Democrat MP and chief secretary to the Treasury of the United Kingdom. Sir Danny gives an

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Welcome to the Central Podcast who weekly discussion current fairs in Houston partnership with South China to China is simply the best way there is to keep on top of all the important news coming out of China with are indispensable daily newsletter or website and our growing range of podcasts and videos. It's a feast of business political and cultural news about a nation that is reshaping the world. I'm Kizer go all coming today for my home in Chapel Hill North Carolina the Asian infrastructure Investment Bank formerly open in January 2016 headquarters in Beijing with the organization does is all there in the Navy buttons to each nation's for investment in infrastructure listening to this program. That was remember the embarrassing the steps that the Obama Administration took him trying without success to dissuade some of its allies for joining is founding members these days though one here is very very little criticism of the bank is the initial skepticism of Rights governance and its environmental standards.

00:02:47
Concerns of a patient's control the bank have large leaves not entirely subsided but aiib has been quite active especially considering it's relatively small capitalization and small size for the organization itself and during the covid-19 pandemic as found a new and very important role for itself today to talk about the state of the bank. I am joined by Sir Danny Alexander vice president corporate Secretary of the aib prior to joining the bank. He spent most of his adult life is politician winning a parliamentary seats in 2005 as a lib Dem MP representing districts in Scotland and becoming Chief of Staff to lib Dem party leader, Nick Clegg in 2008 during the years of the Coalition with Cameron's conservative party. Danny was appointed to Secretary of State for Scotland. That was very quickly promoted to become Chief Secretary of the Treasury, you lost the seat lib Dem route to 2015, but don't feel bad for him. He is after all the only guest on the show to date to have a date beer named after.

00:03:47
And I believe the first knighted guess that we had sir. Daddy Alexander. Welcome to Seneca. Thank you very much that we have to and I actually have to be to call out one more thing is that you're a heavy metal fan and and listeners the show will go be sorely disappointed. If you don't talk to that to that subject a little bit, right since my teenage years has true. You were Chief secretary to the treasury at the time when the US was was lobbying Australia sathriyan other countries that had been invited to join his father's just to not do so. I imagine you must have had some conversations with with something you have been paying attention to you because at that point you hadn't been tapped for the bank yet. Yeah. It was important decision for the Coalition and

00:04:47
For tonight. We're we're leaving that the treasury for the two respective parties. And so we were the ones who were kind of examining closely what was going on and decided that we thought that's at the UK all to join and so we know we recommended that sell respective few leaders and colleagues and actually the decision to join the bank for from the UK spun. If you was one of the very last kind of important decisions that the coalition government made before the the election was you mentioned already. So yeah very much aware of it in a weeping. We've been watching it carefully. We've been trying to get a sense of the substance of the proposals and you know, we were very interested in the idea of a new multilateral institutions and we thought that that they can a purpose of an infrastructure investment was one that we believed was Vonage.

00:05:47
And we also thought that you know China taking a stab to the frozen monkey lights to institution where we favor motion lights for governance. Then we should we should with appropriate reassurance. He's supported by getting involved. We can you no help to make sure that it that it operates properly is part of the rules by system. That was all right now and you're right there were too many conversations with

00:06:16
Many other countries including the US on the details, but yeah, you're right, you know some of those concerns you mentioned was this Bank going to be set up to try and undermine existing International Sandoz to operate and in a way that's you know, who competed on family with the World Bank or whatever would it be dominated by China would have been generally most of the actual situation. We took the view that it wouldn't be those things by being part of it. We could help make sure that it was operated Within

00:06:58
Proper International rules property transfer governance my own view is that after 5 years in the skeptic draw a couple of years ago. Actually I had the opportunity to sit down with another Danny with Danny Russell who is the assistant Secretary of State for eustachian tubes Affairs UIUC acquainted with him. He was there during much of the second Obama term. He he suggested that the warnings up we're a long lines of having to use his cloak wheel American expression. You're buying a pig in a poke that is you know, you don't know what you're actually signing on to you don't know anything that I'm the wraps have been taken off this thing yet other American officials have in the time since a jit. Going suggested, you know that it was their skepticism. It was all that scrutiny that It produced that prompted the bank to actually accept more International Peace patient and establish such high standards of what what do you make of that climb and and what did you know at the time that

00:07:58
You George Osborne decided that it was a good idea for the UK to go ahead and pursue paid by the time we made the decision. It was it was pretty clear to us that this was exactly the right kind of Direction, you know, there are other countries like New Zealand, for example who signed up to the negotiations much out of you if the process is quite transparent so we could see the kind of you know draft documents that were being for pads all of which seemed to us to be exactly the right kind of steps that you would expect in the in the in the in the formation of this and it was it was very important to the UK and I think also important to the other European countries who decided to join that the governor's was strong in the standings behind those things and I I would say that the

00:08:52
The views of those European countries who were considering whether to join and decided to join on those issues at was was very was very positive in getting the bank set up in the right way, but I see the proposals that were there before we got involved, you know, we're really good. You know, there was an American lawyer play. Listen Stein who's being as the cancel cancel your the lawyer basically writing these documents someone with a men's experience of Massachusetts on her career in the world. And you know, it was it was clear that this this was being taken incredibly seriously from the right perspective Jin Li Jun who's not the president the bank but that was then the head of the secretary. I also someone who had a little confidence in five years is a colleague at 100%

00:09:52
So it was clear to me at that time. It was not would not be possible for the US to join the aiba mean taking that through Congress at any time would be a complicated business. But you know other other countries have to make up for their own reasons and I think we made the right decision. You just tell you mentioned that lyrics to Stein who who is served as you say is if you nagatoro general counsel for a ID and I think a lot of people have just give it to give her credit for off the banks very widely praised excellence in governance. I want to just give a shout out to my friend nice Mark wiebe who runs the University of Pennsylvania center for the study of contemporary China their podcast and he did an excellent interview with Natalie. I highly recommend anyone who's interested in digging into that to listen to that. I'm so Daddy. Can you talk about some of the features that you think has made for it for good governance? What are some of the things that people aren't aware of that are in the charter of the aib.

00:10:52
Look at it is it's worth going back to the to the chopper to the office of agreement. And actually, you know, you will see that when they were raising the Cha-Cha they were drawing on Provisions that existed in other multilateral institutions, of course with the benefit of of being to look at the experience of other other International you able to look at my what what's wrong. What what where do we want to pick up the right lessons, but maybe the most important thing to say is that

00:11:26
It's completely in line with the kind of government's approach governance principles of the old much of actual situation. So that the ultimate decision making body has two Finance Ministers of the of the of the member countries and they take the most important decisions and you know, the really the most important decisions are protected by a high voting specials. If you want to change the articles of agreement, for example, you need at least 75% of the of the of the of the shareholding to be willing to endure such such a change. We have a board of directors that operates in a by consensus which has 12 members representing constituencies the chairs and in the bank share dies in a in a in a fair and Equitable way related to bdp-1 distinctive feature. Is that the Asian character of the bank if you like is is is exemplified by the fact that 75% of aib is owned by the ocean.

00:12:26
Countries at 25% by the donation countries. So, you know, you have China India Russia Indonesia. Curia, Australia is Major shareholders and then outside Asia countries like Germany, France UK. So those processes are very strong. There are strong Protections in terms of that, you know that the non political institution and the high Financial standards the sign banking principal. So we have to apply in all of those things come from the shop to invest they say at this is how this bank is going to work and

00:13:04
Of course, you got to take the document to go to put into practice you go to make it real but I think that you know, the the the the the accountability and the scrutiny that we have throughout to our board and through our commitments to transparency open miss. You know mean that this bank is really in a run along. I think I took two very high standards.

00:13:28
Yeah, it seems to be the consensus as I understand that the aib has a structure where loan decisions if you want to change the charger or you got to go all the way to to this board of directors or actually both that but the board of directors don't approve loan decisions, but actually the president does right that's actually quite if you're right. It's a feature but it's a little bit more nuanced than you described. So what we put in place is something cold and accountability framework where the board has delegated some of the decision-making power to the president. So projects below a certain size when you're when you're doing repeats of projects you've done before in certain countries, those things go to the president. But if it's the first country or the project is above a certain Financial size or risk level than the board will still decided and and also the directors have a kind of cold in time, but I think it is.

00:14:28
Something because I'm thinking about to go to look at while it's in in in in the park during the financial crisis. And after the financial crisis was a lot of work done to look at look at how can governments of financial institutions feet feet feet be strengthened. And so the board having clear ownership of the strategy in the policy. That's what it does in the AIP. The borders have been clear ownership of the risk appetite of the institution, you know, what is one of the to talk to risk appetite statement. Signs, but it's very important because it is basically the document that says okay aib, we're prepared to take risks in these areas, but not in these areas. So that means that it's the shareholders you taking taking ownership in that space that's important. And then on the projects we say, okay the board leasing policy strategy the board holds the

00:15:28
And the magistrate accountable for our delivery against those things on the board at delegate operational decisions to the president and less certain features pertain which make the project that's a particular risky Above All Things retro older. I think in that way the division of labor between the board of directors and the management is much clearer is actually a much clearer line of accountability. We've also been one of the first institutions to formalize an annual performance evaluation of the president by the board of directors that we think it's appropriate in the aib set thing where you're delegating power to the presidency. To strengthen the boards tools to hold you accountable for your day.

00:16:26
Do you think it's a good practices from the private sector in the aftermath of the financial crisis and I imagine that this lets you be a little more Nimble in response is a lot of people probably be surprised to learn how small you actually are as an organization. You're very lean operation. I think it's only 300 some people. Is that correct? It is the number of staff is a slightly misleading guide because we're still very much in the kind of early growth growth phase of the bank. So, you know, we we have today 300-320 special staff plus some consultant locally hired administrative people at that will grow still maybe a third or a little more than a third of the financing volumes that will be obtained when we when we are you know fully mature, but I think what you said Is Right

00:17:26
What time is Red X lean cleaning mean is how it comes out? But we but it said that we mean and you know, that means that we're trying to avoid becoming bureaucratic to becoming slow becoming scan of sclerotic in some of the ways that you are so, you know that the management let's build a lean agile responsive institution. But you know those things easy to say and how to do so we're trying not to ask them what we're walking towards that but you know, you see many walks of life. Just let me know. I was in the British government.

00:18:26
You're leaning another sense to take a lot of listeners would probably be surprised to learn how I'll roll totally little you actually have under management right now. I think it's only 18 billion dollars if I'm not mistaken. So we have that the capital of the bank. So we have we have just under 20 billion dollars. I get slight 19.4 which is paid in Bayou by all members and then in addition on top of that we have another 80 billion, which is cold cold, but it's it's it's it's part of the capital base to the bank. So we would say is a hundred billion dollars a capital is going into the bank and then I'll lending so far is about nineteen nineteen billion dollars. I think we had some further approvals at just a day before yesterday. So, yeah, so

00:19:26
In our first can afford a half years. We were approved by not sick of 19.1 billion at US Dollars 83 projects in 23 member countries where we're trying to build it up carefully, right? Because we're in a pot of making this thing is to make sure the government's is strong the standards of high as of the projects are really carefully scrutinized before you agree. That's that that's the financing and that means that you need to develop good practices. You need to hire good people in that pool that takes time. So, you know, by the time the bank is is with the capital we have for the time. The AIP is is is that a sort of steady-state will be doing maybe 15 billion dollars a year financing, but that won't be for another 5 or 10 years with each year were increasing. I don't see this year with the tragedy of the covid-19 crisis.

00:20:26
Really up to lot of our lending for crisis response to a lot of on in the country's. I actually want to focus in on that quite a bit. But before that I do have one other question that I'm sure you get constantly which is a confusion between the AIP and the belt and Road initiative. People. Somehow assumed that they ID as part of bri. Can you set the straight? Is there any formal relationship between Bri and I'm a Ibiza multilateral institution. That means we follow our own strategies. Our own policies are set by all of our members coming together through the night that I've did I mention transfer with all of the members. So I'm Bank was sent out with a mandate to invest in infrastructure support the sustainable development of Asia that mean

00:21:26
Nothing into dividend. I said connectivity project but connectivity projects that me our own standards on our own project qualification criteria not projects that take about go have a label whether it's Bri or blue. Network or whatever. It may be. We judge each project and its own merits according to is it actually beneficial is it financially sound does it satisfy the environmental and social safeguards? Does it have open for humans? And we look at the Texas state ability position of the of the of the place that we're at lending to we don't look at these labels.

00:22:05
Remember that come to us from the member countries themselves or from private companies. We can also do investment soap in a right now and I spent this will continue to be the case for a long time. India is by far our largest bar why they're not noted Lee enthusiastic about the second largest show that I completely committed to aib. They are very well practice at dealing with most of the actual situations and that's a very very important a good relationship for us.

00:22:46
Erase another issue. I wanted to bring up India but looks looks get to this first time this spring as you said while the Titanic was golfing many countries around the world Vai be announced a 5 billion dollars sylheti to dress Public Health needs during the pandemic you started with a 350 billion dollar loan to China, but you've Cincinnati Lewis and numerous countries was fantastic response actually part of the original thinking with a ideal improvise a bit with

00:23:14
It's something that we've had to think on. Our feet will have to be very agile and and and respond to the circumstances, you know, and in a crisis International institutions like us have a responsibility to step off and an offer support to members where they need it. So we're doing that we would never have expected to do when we started right. So some of the lending has been, you know, straightforward lending support the budgets of countries who are under stress and for PPE in and whatnot for economic resilience for liquid. Is he Reasons by supporting the budget of a country in in in difficulties will do on a regular basis purely prices not something where we have particular expertise in a regular remix.

00:24:14
Teaming up with the Asian development Bank in the World Bank to do that together with them. So we've got into supporting some health Investments as much as I do in the life of the AIP than we did then we expect it to be so it's saying if we want to be able to be responsive to our clients need and right now cuz you know many countries almost every country in the world is under huge pressure to manage the disease to to respond to the house by 6, but also to deal with the massive economic impacts, and so

00:24:54
Yeah for Oswego to new car sound with a member countries in and help them through that. That's what we're trying to do. So we the filter is 5 to 10 billion US Dollars and if more is needed will add more to it that said, you know, that's a that's a that's a big chunk going to see much more financing that we've been we've been expecting to do this year. Just out of curiosity if you could rattle off some of the names the recipient countries. So India Pakistan Bangladesh Mongolia, Indonesia has a whole bunch more in the pipeline for dating is to say with a teepee with IMF for the World Bank on on crisis response, right? So and yeah, I mean maybe just to roll back Wednesday for his wee-wee what my heart to build very good Partnerships with other multilateral institutions. So right from the start of the aib.

00:25:54
Housing projects together with the World Bank with the ATV with the European bank for reconstruction and development that was part of our idea and we talked about that helps us and some of the some of the risks and when the when the crisis broke a lot of coordination among the presidents of these in situations that might level at working level to it because all these all these empty Beasley's mother and children. Thanks have a slightly different remix to have slightly different memberships and but we have a responsibility to make sure that that's in total the support with revising is what it is what the members need until it's been a lot of coordination about this and I'm sure they will continue to be because once you're through this immediate emergency face, then given the scale of the economic damage seeming seems to be greater than the financial crisis in 2008 in many places. Then further support will be needed for economic recoveries as well. So when you know when

00:26:54
Not even really into that state yet.

00:26:57
Recently criticism of the aib has been notable. I think chiefly for his absence but even now during the Trump Administration when just about anything that can be in some way tied to China has come in for his real the other two are like abuse there's been relatively little directed at your bank, but the pasta the precipitous decline over the last 4 or 5 years in u.s. China relations had any impact on the way you can able to conduct business have has the broader geopolitics of the US China relationship had any impact so you can talk about no, not really. I mean it is it supposed to treat menu at the u.s. Is not a member of our bank. Of course, I should say the u.s. Is is welcome to apply to join the doors open for for new members. I'm not sure I'd like to know is right now but at the doors open, but you know, we have we started with 50,000 members now, we have a hundred and two members in the in the in the NIV.

00:27:57
Isabel join because that committed to making this institution why is it so our focus is on and how do we draw from all of that experience more of those countries and provides what we want to provide and so I'd say the main impact actually over the last couple years is being has been the economic one on some of our members. So we publish research every year looking at the Asian infrastructure Market, very striking Frozen in the street published in 2019 and early this year that you could see an impact on private sector investment in infrastructure in the major infrastructure markets in Asia by the trade tensions, heightened perception of geophysical risks, and so

00:28:50
Not coming in a fight. You tell me the flight from the willingness of private investors to go into infrastructure in some places. It's a reminder of Ohio important meeting in private sector investment is and it's also a reminder of the importance of having organizations that the AIP which can take a longer time perspective, but you can give it a Securities other financiers uncertainly motivated to significantly increase the proportion of our business, which is in the private sector over the coming years. So lowering the risk profile to bring in institutional investors such a project circuit talk about some of your interests your priorities broadly speaking across the region you say you do all this research. What are you finding that what categories of infrastructure I know that it's very country-specific but are there in generalizations? You can make a cross to say south Asia right now.

00:29:46
I mean, we we've identified basically for areas that we think I need to be prioritized them where I prioritize them know there is is is is meeting needs and demands within can a client says of of of aib. So number one is what we call sustainable infrastructure is environmentally beneficial whether it's a renewable energy to help members meet that commitment under the Paris agreement. Whether it's Transportation Systems to get cars off the road and get people moving around will safely in big cities. I water and sanitation projects which have a health and environmental benefits those kind of things secondly is conductivity, you know that there is a big need in many parts of Asia for infrastructure that helps to enhance connectivity both within and between countries to support rate supposed to be

00:30:46
And so now we find out some Road Project weave weave weave Railway projects that we're looking at. We have the finest any yet. We Finance the port project in Oman, you know that we Finance in telecommunications infrastructure the third one which we literally just completed discussions about so course, you know even more so now after this crisis digital infrastructure is going to be absolutely critical to the future of countries are between low-income countries in the Ecology of that telecommunications and digital infrastructure and the federal countries, even within countries within urban and rural and so forth from multivitamin situation with a public purpose. We see a valid roll for investment to help with some of those divides and then lastly and private-sector private.

00:31:46
I want one area where I think we're being quite Innovative has been projects to try and enhance the sustainability and environmental sustainability of capital markets in Asia, you know ESG rating environmental social governance rating of funds just coming place in Europe and I guess the us but not so much in in in Asia likewise climb up on so if we will launch prefer others in both cases to try and developed markets in this region to help more companies benefit for those kind of instruments. You've actually agrees to bond speaking of bonds and other a lot of sort of Neo cold warrior types of you who suspect that the real purpose of the ivy that you're part of some master plan is to plant the dollar with the R&B has the doctor Global Currency without what I've heard that in the past. I would like to remind people that you actually only have dollar funds but that's not going to be to not you actually going to be doing some R&B investing because you break

00:32:46
This Panda bond in Arby's that is that correct? Right? So on the the the your right to say soul in u.s. Dollars and the vast majority of our financing so far has been in US Dollars were increasingly looking to diversify into other currencies local currencies in the in the in the region. And so this year we issued US dollar bond with raising three billion US Dollars and then you're right. We launched our first Panda bun to a Twist specifically targeted. It's raising R&B where does you said we have a health-related covid-19 said project in China was just to know when I said that I'm being so it helps cystic take take to get the money in there. But you know, it's not show Facts institutions. We're going to be tapping. What's a different markets in order to diversify our funding sources. Make sure we can get the best price because in the end, you know, what would AAA rated institution? We need to leverage that right thing.

00:33:46
To be able to pass on the cheapest financing we can to get to members especially the low and middle-income countries in Asia sew-in in the years to come. You'll see a I be doing financing a whole bunch of different currencies in the in the in the region according to according to what's needed. India has of course been the largest recipient loans from two dates as a member who's also been very skeptical of Bri end and has been of course in nasty spot right now with China over the dock area of Kashmir are loans to India in any way in Peril right now by the situation with China has as I had any impact absolutely not no no change with where we don't look up political issues. We only look at the economic issues India has

00:34:46
A big needs for infrastructure and has very good capacity for developing good quality protein that great to work with so, you know where we're very pleased with the way I'm off aqua color is developing. I also know it looks like to institution we look at the project. That's the only thing to look at me don't look at the politics and we have a really strong pipeline of great projects in India. And of course, you know, India has the second largest shareholder in the NIV. So they're an important part of the of the bank, you know, they were they were ready when the bank sausage with projects coming down the tracks that was great as X going on with see now that other countries were you able to build off off off of folio in places like at Bangladesh Indonesia add turkey and so, you know, you'll see other countries increased but India is going to be a major major market for aib.

00:35:42
Otiv is looking to get the private sector more engaged in and you come for the kind of framework for institutional investors who are looking to invest in in more green and more sustainable projects infrastructure projects in a little bit more about this. What are you watching investors toward right now is as you said things like renewal rules about things like smart cities or you are or so built into the AIP, you know, what bank was created just a few weeks after the Paris agreement was signed your own.

00:36:27
And you know we sleep with you as a major strand of our activities soap one side of it is invested in projects, whether it's probably set for private-sector and the areas you mentioned you like renewable energy. I like smart cities open transport Subway Light Rail schemes this kind of thing, you know, those are areas where we see a huge business that we can that we can develop is going to really benefit a lot of places at but at the same time, we also want to develop Capital markets in Asia so that there are more financing available for companies, who are me saying over the best thing to high environmental standards so that the concept of ESG environmental social governance, right things is is, you know, quite well understood that it's not so wild violets in in Asia. So we set up an ESG Bond portfolio company go to Aberdeen.

00:37:27
Standard has is running that for us half a billion US dollars to buy ESP right to founders of companies to help develop information tools in the Asian contacts that allow people to have more transparency on those kind of instruments and hopefully that will help to develop those markets. So not just for the AI be specific or so to Reno from a lot of the climate-related discussions particularly that that I'm getting financial markets to get their head around the importance of climate Investments and the need to mobilize Finance more broadly for those objectives is important to me think that you know, that's one example of something where I can help the catalyzed. We hope so I have to give a shout out to Calvin quick one of your colleagues. There was the person who actually put me onto you introduce me to your folks.

00:38:27
Go together and you questions you from Greenpeace and is a very very committed in one last question for you for we move on to a condition you recently closed dominations for the upcoming presidential election there weren't any additional nominations. It looks like the only thing he's going to run out of post-op. Can you talk about as a leader? I see I see very well regarded in the world finance. Tell me about him and his leadership style at the bank.

00:38:57
So I've been is a remarkable human being he's Bank as well as the cic experience. He brings all of that to that and I think you know, he is personally very highly committed to multilateralism to having an institution that runs according to the highest standards of the 21st century institution may bring that everything that we do also that we talked about the lean philosophy idea that something particularly dear to his heart. He doesn't want to see waste in the way the bike runs in my discussions with him. I could just as easily be talkin about Shakespeare's as as a sustainable Finance because then you know, he's the very accomplished scholar of English literature DD's Translate.

00:39:57
Some of the works of Shakespeare into Chinese soap in in many areas of culture and therefore in a bring that broader perspective as well as his International experience to to setting up this bank and it couldn't have happened this way without his his working his leadership. Well, unfortunately, I won't be able to hold forth on Shakespeare well with you, but I can talk a little bit about two things that I do like which are beer and heavy metal. Tell Tel's

00:40:31
tell us tell us about the ginger root beer, so that's a good good one and

00:40:39
In 2011. There was a Labour party politician cold Harriet Harman who made an attack on me when I was comparing me to add to a ginger rodents and Brewery makes absolutely wonderful PA. They have a bit of fun with this. So they Buddha Beer with a nice picture on the cover. So pretty well good coffee flavor. It was good enough to see the funny side and I got them to serve this beer and the in the bar of the House of Commons and that we went down and we went down there and put some points together. So it was that in the end, you know, very friendly.

00:41:36
Oh, that's fantastic. That's just great the other things in a Telegraph and if you did mention that you have an affinity for heavy metal music up. I don't want to get into that with you maybe during the recommendation segments of our program. But let me first a brief message about how our listeners can help the podcast.

00:41:59
Hey syndicalist news. I'm really grateful to all of you who stepped up and donated or subscribe during our drive. As you know, things are in a perilous state right now with us China relations. And it feels like the middle ground is disappearing really fast. I still believe that a deeper understanding of China is urgently needed. So help us get the word out about the podcast and help us keep going because these things do cost money. If you think this program add some valuable perspectives and helps to restore a little sanity. If you want to keep fighting the good fight then show your support by going to podcast. Sub china.com that's podcast. Sub china.com and help us out. However, we can from our podcast team and olives of China. We thank you from the bottom of our hearts for your contribution.

00:42:50
Okay. Now it's recommendations for sister Danny. It's true. You are indeed a metal fence. What bands do you like in and have you had a chance to check out of local Chinese heavy metal. It's true. I am ever since my teenage years. I mean like my my taste State back to the probably mostly to the Vans. I listen to in the 1980s. So I had the chance to go and see Metallica. For example in London. I think it was in 1989 or 1990. Yeah, he's actually, you know, a lot of that British stuff. So yeah, I'm going to probably become a bit more attractive. Am I might I'm broadening from Beyond in a metal to other other other music, but I still I subjected to listen to Metallica. Sometimes Louise Mensch was empty when I was in pain.

00:43:50
Lazarus got into any local here yet until you gave me some recommendations. So I downloaded some some. Oh, yeah, that's such as great may think I am 1150 caught my eye was tengger Cavalry to over the endless.

00:44:30
Endless guidelines of play some innocent sedentary agrarian people while you're at it then. That works just as well on the ego follows another one and nine Treasures Treasures. They actually believe they won the battle of the bands at wacken Open Air Festival in Germany the year that we went in 2013. I don't know if they want if they claimed they were the second runner-up show me but they're fantastic band nine Treasures check them out.

00:45:17
That's that's fantastic. I'm going to give my somebody asked me to share cocktail recipes not beer, but I'm going to go through another form of alcohol. I'm going to recommend a slightly modified version of the Sazerac which is my favorite cocktail. It's you know, the New Orleans classic sugar cubes to Dash's of luxardo Maraschino liqueur, which is useful thing to have around and quantity. So in a mixing glass for a cocktail shaker two dashes of look sort of three dashes of peychaud's bitters absolutely crucial to dashes angostura bitters to oz of ride or and 2 oz of glasses in an ounce of bourbon. I like actually to use this High Rye bourbon that is made by an American company called Redemption. It's it's a great great High Rye bourbon supposed to be after that start with i,

00:46:17
Change it into an old-fashioned glasses for drinks with ideally absence of any kind of Anna space with your Works. Zest to lemon peel on that though. It's it's it's an Amazing Jake's highly recommended as you're listening to the Seneca podcast enjoy that and should any thank you so much again for taking the time. It's been a real pleasure talking to you. Thank you very much and I'll go make the cocktail now. It's that even time in Beijing. So I'm not sure I have all the ingredients but I'll see if I can get somewhere close to it to make some very good cocktails in your in your area that will be back in touch again. Thank you so much pride part of the Seneca Network all shows produced by Kaiser gloss and Jeremy goldkorn with editing help by Jason McRonald drops an email at Seneca. It's up China. Com follow us on Twitter or on Facebook at at some time.

00:47:17
And make sure to check out our other podcast that worked including the China and Africa podcast Daily Tech Buzz charge. Thanks for listening. I will see you next week. Take care.
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