New Books in Intellectual History - Nicholas B. Miller, "John Millar and the Scottish Enlightenment: Family Lfe and World History" (Voltaire Foundation, 2017)

During the long eighteenth century the moral and socio-political dimensions of family life and gender were hotly debated by intellectuals across Europe. John Millar, a Scottish law professor and philosopher, was a pioneer in making gendered and familial practice a critical parameter of cultural difference. His work was widely disseminated at home and abroad, translated into French and German and closely read by philosophers such as Denis Diderot and Johann Gottfried Herder. Taking Millar’s writi

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Content Keywords: John Miller
Everybody and welcome back to new books and intellectual history of podcast channel on the new books Network. I'm Alexandra if the channel and today I'm talking to Nicholas Bea Miller about his new book John Miller and the Scottish Enlightenment family life and world history published by Voltaire fundations. Oxford University like mint in 2017, Nick, welcome to the show this to tell us a little bit about themselves and how to the topic of your book.

Right, so cuz I'd start by saying that I come from a multicultural background. My mother was born in the Philippines in my father is from a Mennonite community in Indiana. I grew up in quite eccentric Hearts United States including Southern Utah where polygamy is still quite common Southern Nevada as well as Hawaii. And so even if you growing up, I think I saw that different ideas of family life or no question, but also being to go shooting on a daily basis and as I go through to be coming into a short story of Scotland, and I think perhaps well informed my interest in aspects of Dunder the family

That's a very kind of interesting link that I'm I'm sure we can come back to and motivations and specifically I'm writing about John Miller in the Scottish Enlightenment on this topic break. So I wanted to tell a story about about how cultural differences negotiated in the Enlightenment and mainly. Relating to the domestic sphere. So the questions of marriage family life child rearing his pension Etc in and how these were intellectually a praise and I think I want to do this in a way that will come a different than older study on individual figures in the scotch in life than that which tended to be framed along how these figures anticipated Search Modern discipline apology or sociology year or even political science for example, so my interest here wasn't some watch to declare John Miller who I also I decide upon us the most interesting Scottish Enlightenment thinker

I'm think through these issues about the encounter with Emilio different but I didn't want to do is declare him as the anticipator of anthropology or sociology and then perhaps the previous monograph. The only other monograph that has been written about John Miller in the past Century impact fees include that in in the title on that you with it or run or sociology. So I would admit that you buy clearly establishing a disciplinary Legacy for individual stocks Enlightenment thinkers, like John Miller might help us put them on a map and you don't have a easy easy, you know Buzz word for them, but really might interest

Really was not so much the Miller and stalls, but rather the intellectual contacts he operated with them and what they his decisions and it's what his argument review about. I'm. About that moment in the encounter between Walt Encounter of European thinkers with global diversity. So in a nutshell my motivation here in this book was was really distinctly contextual to see how Norms of gender Norms of family life and ideas to civilization. We're being disgusting and configured at this at the time. That's the discussion lights in which of course, I think many of your listeners will know is often understood as an important intellectual turning point in history of progress narratives of development and justifications.

Or British. Enjoy Western colonialism

That contextualization is is so so rich in the book and it's something that's that was really really enjoyable and an incredibly and lightning but I think it might be helpful to give listeners. I'm a brief overview of who John Miller walls and perhaps the contribution that he's traditionally your have been seen to have kind of ads on for intellectual history. Right? So let's just start with maybe a biography of John Miller unit. And I'm not as much as I have grown to care for John Miller as part of researching for this book working on him. You're reading his work quite closely for a 5-year. I mean

InTouch live action's perhaps with more famous Scholars above all Adam Smith. So you studied closely underhand University of Glasgow and then after completing his studies, I think it's a couple years when I see appointed as professors to the wall there and he held for nearly forty years. I from 1761 until 1800 really John Miller's aside from his two matrices which for the origin distinction ranks in his later historical view of English government Miller really lived after you life was really close to engage with University famous for having Revival study of law University of Glasgow. You don't like student number shot up. So, you know scarf after remember, but he University

Awesome at work very closely with other leading figures of the Scottish Enlightenment in between his appointment as Professor civil law and his time studying at the University. He actually serves as a leader for the children of 14. He was there a very important. Uncle George and very wall you very generous patron of Scottish Enlightenment thinkers y'all so, you know, it was in discussion and other correspondence with David Hume other figures. Unfortunately a lot of the correspondence. You don't have Miller really followed in the power of the tracks of his great venture out of myth including in having most of his correspondence and unpublished material burned out of his death. So well that may have preserved but they the average level quality of the horses no fun.

Short story in which he did post them challenge has been researching. This book is quite curious intensive. That's a setting him against his counterpart is that he never left Britain. He only traveled outside Scotland for a couple of times for a couple drinks to England. And so and contrast for example Smith Stay With You For example, you are weaker and only based on correspondent.

Right. Let's go on maybe to think about the Legacy you perhaps his most important work, which was the origins thinks of ranks and that really pasta to the basis of my analysis in this text. This is the work in which Miller deploys a really rigorous analysis of the links relations and social relations. And in the way that just came to satisfy. Let's say the basis of my curiosity which was your questions of Dunder questions with family and questions and gold was first he did this by renovating the Aristotelian Paradigm of Distinction of household Authority relations, and I think we'll talk about that later, but that use of the stadio Paradigm that really serves as the basis of interest in Miller in Miller's Works were rediscovered

During the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries Miller's basically influence went well. What happened was in the early 20th century marks of Scholars identified in him a pioneering Spirit of f Terminus them and historical materialism first in the person. Can I just followed by $14 a week and ends in player has magic and we talk about this later but the connection between Mark the Millers by interesting theory that Martha Circle materialism has its roots in Miller is actually based on the fact that marks text extensive notes of his reading of Miller's origin of Distinction of rain, but in fact when we go into those notes will see that what what ear is really interesting.

Marshalls historical materialism but Riley Marx's history of the family in January that unit was later, which was later published after his death by it by angles. But so a lot of attention to Miller was based on this notion tennis interested in historical materialism and then later that shifted as I already mentioned to an idea that Miller's assistant his interest in system is also supposed to use the empirical sources Leo made him a disciplinary at if that's your sociology and I was Elena more recently over the past few decades attention to Miller has really focused around the same questions that you know after he needs to him as well with her question for gender question. I History questions of the encounter with Uncle difference in here. I'm fixing your daughter such as Jane Randall call bowls and Sylvia sebastiani.

Final note. There's been a no-interest year on Miller politics. He frequently was considered the most radical Number the Stars Enlightenment, particularly. I'm yo given that he was younger than coerced dollars against Smith Willie Roberts and he actually lived in to the. After the country after the outbreak of the French Revolution which Miller and some Scholars such as Duncan Forbes in particular notion of scientific wig, which what's the interesting going on just from you know, why was Miller found to be interesting but at least you what I Praise of his signature contributions intellectual history, I think his contribution has to be placed in the context of the Age of Enlightenment and

Indeed. It is his assistant Spirit of synthesis. And the way at this configured his stated his attendance they do with history and to the established but on a serious note. I also think we find a newer really sensitive eye to history and especially a type of social history and that's practically developing historical view of English Cocker and just to maybe just an end to this point right here as I know many of the readers many readers of this book have as much as I appreciate his sensitive. I said history. I think we should also think about what we're the I was directed in terms of his interest in history, which was fundamentally local and so this led implicitly as well as explicitly to a historical gave connected with the history of progress. That was fundamentally based on Europe.

Even more narrowly on the on the history of Britain.

I'm taking I think I'm very complex character comes through so clearly I'm in in the book and I think you present such a such a kind of fascinating tapestry these kind of element outline the structure of the book and unkind is how the argument progressives number case studies and again distance because the the question of his handling of evidence about you no difference in gender difference in a little different in different societies how that was engaged constitutes up to the starting point of the analysis some other the book is no nay has John Miller at the at the core of a title really you're my interest here is in using John Miller such as a form of Guide to the bra.

Questions of the historical diversity in the global diversity of family practices in the am I in the way in which different function is the sort of intellectual count during the during the Enlightenment? So again, just to recap that like the way the way the book is structured is using when I called domestic differences or certain issues relating to gender and familial difference as a focal point rather than organizing the text just on the basis of what's a Miller's analysis is stop trying to unpack the analysis here in and then put a focus on how Miller in a way out with a disk empirical side of his thoughts on household Authority.

Case study relate to the analytical question that were that were debated broadly in the 18th century and indeed before the news report of early modern. I'm concerned generally matriarchy or to use the term more common in the 18th century. Gynecocracy minute matriarchy didn't really become a popular concept into a pothole and some mouse with the 19th century. But really refuse the we see the underpinnings of the notion of matriarchy as a sort of conversion of patriarchy already developed and see if I date or Miller indeed and then the third chapter focus is on a very specific iteration of matriarchy namely its possibility and

Place within a story historical schema of a contract which was the Amazon and this chapter is I think it's especially interesting in that the Amazon served as a sort of basis for thinkers in the enlightenment to the to the interrelationship between a re-reading of optical pendant with a with the reading of a more recent graphic material from the age of Explorations in the mid-sixteenth century. And then using off in the Amazon side, then I'm the fourth chapter consider race. And the way that race was configured or not in discussion lights been discussions of national character and hear Miller receives a little bit to the back of my line. And then after I pick up what Miller thought of this

Temporary Society namely Denver relation marriage the relationship between parents and children and his home in his contemporary moment and is ideas and your fears and anxieties about the future family life to go back to the point is against you focus on Millers contributions within the intellectual landscape of his played his time, you know, the place Miller within that but also to delimit Miller's contribution and what I am trying to do here with this structure is a is a type of intellectual biography. That's cool. But also avoids a type of his geography geography and I think that is really the illogical contribution that I am done in this, you know, my point here is I don't want to make Miller

The equator work greatest thinker than he necessarily was I think it was but I really think what is interesting with Miller is the different ways in which you, too distinctive argument in the intellectual debates and release world of forces that exist at this time, and I think if there's one thing that an analysis of Miller's choices and Analysis evidence that I basically it again is it's how it is the place of sources and the extent to which we have inductive rather than rather than deductive logic you support this is happening in the Scottish Enlightenment. I think there's frequently this argument that

Certain unsavory conclusions offering scotch and last night we can bring up. For example David hume's Infamous, you know Ryan son raised spot that this is due to limited evidence available or this is due to a sort of like circumscribed on face. He's really these type of conclusions were not based on say the the forces themselves. These were based on the sources are always used to ask your teacher kleos heart of the debate on difference in society that existed in the in the stocks of my Testament ain't no idea the really hear that that the point of using the case study format is to make this argument again of the really the deductive function of source used in this.

And I think we'll definitely come back to this topic of sources and evidence cuz it's it's a really kind of driving. In the book, but I'm ready start by 8 by how you talk about John that there was a guy and it kind of is methodological approach. I think that's a really really nice way of kind of condensing what you've done in the book that using John Miller as a guide to explore this this much richer context, but it's diving straight into chapter. 122 Condors really get get to the nitty-gritty he is so here you explore Enlightenment ideas regarding polygamy. So could you describe a little bit about how polygamy was variously viewed by some of the things that you include in the book and and maybe explain why it was such a very very contentious. I'll pick it up.

Curso polygamy really was the was the focal point of eighteenth-century discussions on on on different forms of marriage much much more than actually I'm the right to divorce which I think is the word that can really interesting. I'm act like that weekend maybe later but is it the reason why was Austin happy birthday at entrance of the can lights with philosopher? So if you think of like Montesquieu Miller included if you think about what they found interesting about or a very different in other societies marriage could be structured differently and there is no way there's no more basic structure structural difference then you know monogamy vs polygamy and how it functioned as a function. That's a way of discussing marriage practices in almost every other society that your are considered civilized during this time. So,

The Ottoman Empire turkey as it was more often referred to a Nexus entry off of China Japan. For example, that is useful as these thinkers reflecting upon marriage practices. In other societies came to this conclusion of polygamy essentially dominated where was permitted in every society in the world besides Europe. And so when been thinking about how it's presented an interesting Challenge from Miller and lot of his arguments based around this which is how could why did Europe not have polygamy if this was generally a feature seen in most other wealthy rather he wouldn't use the term that starts with your civilization developed by these, but of course you don't

Driving questions that ultimately became more narrowly. It also has to do with your specific history and relationship, especially to ottoman expansion and you know to go even farther back you go to dinner after the Crusades Notions of Christendom in which color of the discussions of polygamy in in the time. But at the same time the uncertain prescription of polygamy in the Christian tradition also was revived in you're not supposed to practice during the reformation and this actually gave you a really interesting event in 1780 which end of that decade in which I discussed with some details on the book and this was the controversy and so this was when

On the British public stage a Methodist rather eccentric Methodist decided to Advocate be legislation polygamy as a means of protecting women of the byline as his tax returns all Teleflora with trees on female ruin this occasion days huge huge outrage among the public with no all sorts of pamphlets play tax return about it. Almost all you know against polygamy and here we saw a couple is not only that used to be in the production constantly rehearsed connection between polygamy in Islam. So, you know, I'm a Don was imagine that the Cobra Mustang for example, but you also saw me sebass quite interesting ly the Strategic the point of Miller's ranks and

Discussion of polygamy in them and so that. That's all that's all showing in the in the that's all showing there in the in a text at the same time, you know, a lot of the sources that Miller used on polygamy and other drive not from what's a China or from also came from the 16th century where you have any of the famous case of muenster the sort of like leaving. Community property and you had beauty of women and throw this here you see this but you know, there's a function as a as a debate perhaps I wasn't as far-fetched as it might seem to us today because of you.

And again one other reason why polygamy was so prominently in debates. What's an alternative differences in marriage structure? Basically monogamy polygamy or the possibility of divorce. That's frequently. What was uses Trio and

Miller chosen instead of that tree, which was used by a lot of how their if his contemporary. They gave us you for example shows has no family difference. Just threw that hurt. I'm through through marriage Miller Toca Boca Raton Housing Authority relation for both of these paradigms of the Tree of Life on marriage and divorce first and the and the authorities Authority relation of the relationship between husband and wife Father and Son master and servant in Sovereign subject both of those, you know, how long they have been discussed by number thinkers. Really? What was interesting about Miller was to subject on this Aristotelian Paradigm to a historical and no ethnographic an hour to answer the other question of how did your contemporary family relations come to the fore now here it was interesting was polygamy is that

Your Miller I think went this route because he did not just want to talk about marriage act as if you want to talk about different dimensions with family or Broly in it. So what the Aristotelian Paradigm offered him was a moral compass in approached you to the history of the family in part because he know his main interest is writing a history of authority. And before I hit you with Lori that would go from the beginning of Authority or the beginning of story of Civil Society on Words And even though I start at polygamy which again is the store Ultra Paradigm that Miller had his time. I'm the reason why I'm doing this again, if you uncouple the launch of his analysis which again, you know that the first half you're beginning to wish I could correlate to these four are some Italian power relations, the the husband-wife Father and Son master and servant by Jack and

Endwell Millertown change the places by us and much are first chapter it again is exactly on the context in what choices Miller and what alternatives Miller had structure in his mouth.

So in spite of this for Rory surrounding polygamy, there is some kind of more I suppose we could go pragmatic views on polygamy and that you introduced which art which are linked especially to debates on population. Could you tell us a little bit about why population growth with such a pressing issue and how this was factored into shifting ideas of the family and especially how devastating the wars of the of the early modern. It follows and I'm excited. I think you're more aware of The Big Brawl bit more load up how devastating and wars were done a graphic example for you had areas where the population decline by 40%

In Britain Britain generally thought this was cute, but not even know grow population race beyond what they did it increase absolute population increase your population with was really intense passion in central European my interest here in the relationship between polygamy and unlicensed are population is them is one of the apps that I take off in a my chapter in a Rent-A-Center me which were not just limited to Central Europe.

Included at but also be sure to a certain extent and in Scotland was trying to contextualize Miller Miller was not really interested in the popular off Billy's Floyd me to David and David he was basically just exploring this allows us to contextualize Miller against this he's probably not he's not interested in the question of population growth, which I think said something about where you know Miller wear Miller is going in his mouth. And again, maybe just to return I guess to this topic again, you know, I think it's important to see in this is how it does relate a bit to plug me this experiment and Muenster the relationship between the reformation and polygamy.

This is really interesting thing. We're like lip and Central Europe. You have searched next when it's like you see who promoting polygamy and that are vilified for it. And I think there's your knee-jerk reaction that we have now to see okay with polygamy was arrested in eighteenth-century Europe Orioles Beyond The Pale because of its association with Islam at the same time. We should also think about it as a connection with a 3-2 radical protestantism. You never asked for reformation that I'm by the 18th century was being seen as a rather talk. In Europe Europe's history.

You got some very good warning there for intellectual historians to pay more attention to it to social history. I put some moving on to the your second chapter, which is cooled before patriarchy maternal power in primitive societies not hear you explore Miller's discussion of an early society in which women prevailed absolutely fascinating to make such a conclusion describe some of the examples that he uses to support his argument.

Right. So in a nutshell mean to you think of a very influential historical answer to this, I guess after the post historical the last one. I think what Miller is doing here is he's really drawing on high and everything about the really interesting argument, you know, in terms of authority relationship Authority mission to liquor Authority really emphasizes that there is this transitional moment in the early history from essentially maternal dominant or maternal authority to to mail or he sees cause basically days out with argument that in a world where you can. A mother and child and because marriage doesn't exist yet.

Don't exist yet one would assume that this alliance between or the affection and the respect. I would buy the child to the mother would persist and this would give rise in certain instances to societies where you're very early societies were women actually help political Authority and some Miller basically reiterates this argument and what does not actually no draw on a contemporary sources and this is the second chapter of his in the first half of the book and it's really the first half of the book even if you talk about other early relationship between husband and wife is the focal point of his and what you want to hear for and what he was still at you still taking causes answer quite seriously for free dressing the question of the stage of the of the early history, Sol.

I am with this allowed him to do that fan gave testimony with many other thinkers. Just left out about various societies across the world in which sort of matriarchal what we will now call me matriarchal. I'm practices for evidence, but the Millers historical time in his history of progress. He really was adamant that you know, this was not so much the gynecocracy which of the time that we need a Roper example, but this was rather the maintenance of eternal power and permissive Society. He really was Keen to circumscribe. This is the exalted ruler of the the mother to again to a very early stage in the history of of all out and put aside to clear to his idea of this has its place in the in his contemporary world record Historical Society.

This uses of the think it's really interesting in that the explain the connection between the law has not really been problem with either before and so I think the guy doing the Shocker. Maybe one way of thinking about hobbs's continued because this is really aren't the answer he comes up to you with his not found in. So what's important to underline here is much less to do with a protagonist inclination. It has to do with the street this history of thority. Let's just talk about maybe some of the sources that he used. So a lot of these I do previously mentioned by Montesquieu rent in this was more common in this. Of Enlightenment social reflection of the of the history of society. A lot of the testimony will want if you just need to come up with all the

I know other smaller than rewrite them Snapples or refute the passiflora polyandry. There was also the political practices of Native Americans in North America. Also, the people the Mariana Islands this is these are stopping station between Manila and Acapulco and they and they are you had reports of the eternally focused property in household true that was provided through a

Nowhere logo be on when he came from Howell Mill or red logo be on and how others call it is at the time off the road to go beyond the next section. One of these sources. Miller used was the Amazon.

Then let's let's pick up on those Amazons cuz I think that's that's one of the most striking out all the chapters of striking but this isn't a particularly interesting once he is why you're uncovering the views on what is a very popular social and gender Dynamics ruled over the view of the kinds of troops that existed in European discourse regarding on Amazon and why they were being used so frequently by Enlightenment thinkers.

Right. So with the Amazon interested in the negative negative negative character, right? It was just like, okay. Well, how are they impossible that became frequently like the thing that you see her time and time again, it would be like you from the Renaissance or the classical Antiquity stores failure on the part of Travelers that had gone to the Amazon River basin for example named after the fact that you know, the first European explorers there thought they had seen Amazon mistaken r u c z Thrift like an unlicensed version of arguments of no Marvel's deduction. For example, Miller didn't want to do that Miller.

I would try to use the renovation of Hafiz discussion of maternal dority and have to say that will maybe what is what the prices of Morgan analytical issue wasn't defending that Amazon's actually existed a relation of the commercial truck. Right which was you know, single breasted women Revolution. They will depart for men. They rated integrated Society worried their mission. They would do this very strange active where you know, once annually or once every few years, they would commune with some bands get pregnant.

Featured quite commonly, especially late 17th century about the 18th century Special Forces. He wasn't content to say okay will be her Marvel if they don't they're impossible. It don't exist. This is ridiculous describe how a society that had a work wear women had a more active role in politics and in property relations power how that could ever exist in a different time. Let me try one of the most interesting discuss. This is so he's a really fascinating character. I think that I think that somebody who's really interested in, you know, very interested in

You may be a little late like a piece of humanism. Should she take them up another marvellous report from classical Antiquities of cannibals and what you see in him is a really interesting application of a few minutes reading practices and the Cartesian Duality between mind body. But this was more for your mind right now. I can't you guys have a really early feminist thinker

Play I Saw Mill argue on Pawn petite to Source his brief discussion on the Amazon and buy forging this connection between petite and Miller my uncle here. Again, if you draw attention to the sort of well, thesaurus has the wealth of possible paradigms. Miller had at his disposal to get to ride his Progressive. I just want to be a pick up on that point of sources and evidence. Could you tell listen is a little bit about the ways in which Midler's use of these kind of evidence resources. What would someone difference to contemporaries also kind of thinking about Amazon's and unkind of matriarchal societies is used to describe Miller. So if you think I'm back in form scientific wait, for example, or you note ideas and of the early sociologist,

I will 18th century standards. He certainly wasn't more enthusiastic user the put no sense and other Scholars compared to talk to you was one thing I can't very interesting when I first started re Miller's work and he offers page numbers the offers the book title. He offers the author sometimes those it's actually quite easy to replicate his citation practice. Their his reading practice is through his citation practices and beliefs true me in and in a way, that's really how I got to Miller's you writing. This book is I was following the footnote he drew on a rather ride range of sources some of which were some classical Antiquity most of which were Travelodge Age of Exploration and what we also seem to put notes and type his work. He was using is what language is Oro read rather.

Did you source is collected in other languages, but these were mainly through translation and when it seems I also focusing on the first three chapters is again, this aspect of the testimony at the transition between languages are some of the sources you were like this hand sources about the sources again for spoken to Tom Miller red his source of strategically. Sometimes there would be a piece of information like two paragraphs later in the in his the source that he reported that or disproved how he I just used it and to me it's unlikely that he is unlikely that you know, he didn't read that. I actually think that you read things by closely rather. He cited sources very strategically to emphasize certain point he wanted to marry. Can I sync?

Find in the book. It's like I I really want to argue that we should take the source to use more seriously, then then it's often done. We should use Source used as a practice. No, not just the practice of footnoting. Lots of the reading act. We should focus on this, you know closely rather than just accepting, you know, quite a big way that Miller is engaging in his type of empirical now,

Thank you. What a testament to the history of the footnote in its importance. So you 10 then in chapter 4-2 Enlightenment assessments of the domestic order of colonial Spanish America the Bible in relation to rice and how knowledge of the diverse Familia world of Spanish America came to the attention of the figures of the Scottish Enlightenment. So could you explain the forms are coming back to that point that you just made suits out the forms in which his information was reaching individuals like Mila and why the racial hierarchies of the stylish cut Spanish colonies were of particular interest to those who are engaged in studying the science of man. I think that's fine. That's after a bit puzzling why I included it partly. I think it's important to think of it. Like I think they really put who's late 18th century to explain what the thinker's there now analyzing what relationship they had to either sources about race or

Analytical paradigms embraced. I think this is a blind spot that can't be left at the same time. Miller's Miller really did not use as much as that became something to explain why I appreciate that summons bus with historians think that there's no need to problem light eyes. What is impacting really what you said? What what's interesting here except for a footnote quoted quite extensively on from sources that were Source in Spanish America, and he even mentioned for example that one of the figures that he analyzed to represent cultural practices in new more primitive Society was a mestizo and it's quite sure I think it would be

Anchors of the time to just say okay to Miller maybe knew nothing about Spanish America. I think that's very unlikely in particular because there was a waging debate between William Robertson to developing his history of America. For example between Lord came from Lawrenceburg, but I really wanted to understand was how we can Scituate Miller's work at which again made so much use of a discussion of differences between societies how we can contextualize Upon a Time in an eighth late 18th century discussions on on race and race featured as a excuse me to distinguish between

Different peoples and also their family practices are the actresses in part one reason why Miller did not drop your friends with skepticism Brawley to climactic explanations for four differences in free sample first birth ratio between boys and girls at this was something that Montesquieu quite use quiet and Susie Astic Lee and what number does Mitch directions to transfer examples you dispute that and say that we have generally I actually quite Universalist clean about the human body operate regardless of climate. I'm so again, like it was really about quitting is not focusing on the alternative to Miller's pack of analysis in it.

I think you make a really important contribution that to what is still a growing field right this the study of race and kind of ideas of race within the Enlightenment and I think you you you make a very important kind of all I want to just focus on something that you bring up in this chapter, which is the diski contradiction between the global scope of his account and his views on the universal human capacity for improvement. So she could you take this tension little bit especially with reference to the Spanish-American case for historian historian, and I was really fascinated by how he like other Enlightenment thinkers struggle to Scituate historical time. She'll almost all these sneakers new dubsmash America had been radically transform after the age of a beer and exploration or, knowledge.

But you continue to think of it that evident about tree contact social life and still be extracted from Smash American location even once collected by Spanish priest discussing next to a visual convert it to me what I find really interesting here is how even despite that knowledge such evidence of drastic cultural change affected by Conquest is there was no impact upon the conventional understanding of historical character for Enlightenment thinkers. And I think it was this reveals is the very limited degree to which these thinkers and Miller included really cared about the question of historical character beyond the application or the ramifications of it or the formation of their own your their own specific historical care.

I think it's algerie local WOD it reveals the especially in terms of how it related to historical time in progress in the civilizing mission. Not only as it was practiced in the 19th century. It was configured missionaries with normatively. He has the best Christianity had an important part of the story York social institution. We're ahead of social Pie as you know, they were ahead in the throat and really why I was kind of doing the Chargers to outline that seems really prob'ly theme that I'm sensing his analysis and doing that against The Chronic

New Final Chapter you then move on to talk about minutes or forms for commercial society and how these linked to his views on the family and also the individual which I think is something intelligent individual. Could you just give us a general overview of what has vision of the society was and how it related to The Wider intellectual and political climate discussion Lawton. Okay. So basically 11.1 of the more interesting things up happening in the analysis is commercial society and the place of the family commercial society. And so what's interesting about commercial society formularies that it represents its distinctive pattern. In other world size societies who had become quite wealthy and had exhibited no complex stratified societies.

Agriculture some forced labor, you know a great amount for the court what distinguishes Europe from the societies was a commercial Society in commercial Society. What's really interesting how it functions for Miller is basically his way of dealing with your history of monogamy that basically is what it does actually based on the very specific history of Europe which it which allows European country to break beyond the general rule that the outlines elsewhere in his in his hand in his work. So I'm the general pattern of history is that actually Society becomes more unequal and more and then the relation between actually become less and less equal Anna Paquin type of Mystic more and more based on Master versus servant. But but what your pad because of The Coincidence of the fall of the Roman

Fire and the arrival Christian moral standards and the tiger gation of property collection. Then the rise of feudalism again, this isn't a very historical argument that's not Universe list of Europe to arrive to A. Of luxury where power was divided by season a will there's a division of power that even if I could be a household. So unfamiliar commercial Society is ultimately based on gender relations, but off the broad Authority relation that are more individualistic and more in a way to Gallup area than those found another world contact the history of Miller's analysis in the ranks of some sort of understand that in theory from a universal history of progress, but also because there's no getting his Fidelity to soar.

Infidelity the local contact awesome to explain the history of Europe implications of this certain individual has been this commercial Society. What did it mean for the future family life? Will he was really anxious? I mean, like really feared unintended consequences in one. He had was even though he was eccentric celebration going on here. But while he's very happy that you know relations between no fathers and children or husbands and wives in a way gentler or more, you know more then another historical or contemporary what he feared was that the spirit of individualism might actually have unintended consequences and

You know my actually such her family authorities to the point where poverty example could increasingly become an issue for a family but more broadly to the this aspect of the relationship between the individual and other bonds of other people that eventually would have been provided true only life were through the community. But again just idea of the sort of like, you know how isolated individual fighting for themselves in the world. So even though he doesn't quoted of the Modern Family and the specificity of the issues relating to their individual individual spirit, and you know, what type of domestic Society based on reciprocal obligations

But before we finish Nick, I think we've we've gone quite thoroughly through the book at this point that I just want to come back to this this what is this concept of history and it's because really Central to to your book is this expiration of how big is like Miller are interpreting history and progress and historical time. So could you explain to listen as you are not as familiar with histories of the Scottish Enlightenment important juncture in the history of European sort of Distinction that undergirded 19th century and ization and mainly between anthropology and history so doing that, you know, they progressed essentially that use their four stages. Sometimes three been in Miller's case and I will stop a stye before it to transition from the state to state.

Or a hunter Gathering Agriculture, and then finally have a source of Life commercial Society differ, but what's important here is that there's an articulation of the different theories of historical time, which different Societies in the in the world can occupy different. I think perhaps most important implication of this besides, you know, how it's obvious effect on justifying your colonial power in the civilizing mission was again a in terms of the supply station because this distinction between history of which was supposed to head to survive and uncivilized reviewed as you know, what they like

I might just quickly sneak another question in which has you booked is assessing and I'm reassessing significance in the enlightenment intense the legacy of a few feeding into that what you think that we should zatta's Rita's take away or not to take away from from it has built in 2022 a lot of debate that's been happening. But what I think Wes Miller offers us is the longevity of questions of change and diversity and family practice. And what's interesting that even in contacts.

Scotland, we see how gender and family were not merely tack on issues but actually focused and actually existed as the heart of how contemporary thought about society and thought about others.

We have a great deal to learn from that still before we let you go neck. Can we get a brief ideas to what you're currently working on and I think I'm really interested in Immigration before it continues the population concerned about to indigenous Monarch in the Pacific in the 19th century complex news, and it's better and of course with Colonial Mission schools, aren't we born from a general interest? I have in the global working out of the Enlightenment, which I know is a very contentious office.

Find me another recipe change with the 18th century Scotland. One of the focal points. Andrew Turnbull who was a Scottish medic turns Mediterranean Council in the Ottoman Empire turn the country into go planter in Colonial Florida. And so I'll be working out in the next over next year. So station.

They sent a city fascinating and I'm sure we will have you back on the show to talk about them make thank you so very much for being here again, and to listen to Just a repeat. The book is John Miller and the Scottish Enlightenment family nice and world history. Thank you so much.
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