The Tim Ferriss Show - #451: Mike Novogratz on Bitcoin, Macro Trading, Ayahuasca, Redemption, and More

Mike Novogratz on Bitcoin, Macro Trading, Ayahuasca, Redemption, and More | Brought to you by Magic Spoon, Four Sigmatic, and LMNT.Michael Novogratz (@novogratz) is the founder and CEO of Galaxy Digital. He was formerly a partner and president of Fortress Investment Group, LLC. Prior to Fortress, Michael spent 11 years at Goldman Sachs, where he was elected partner in 1998. Michael served on the Federal Reserve Bank of New York’s Investor Advisory Committee on Financial Marke

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Optimal minimum altitude I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start shaking.

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I'm a cybernetic organism living tissue over metal endoskeleton.

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Lil boys and girls ladies and germs this is Tim Ferriss and welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferriss show where does my job to interview world-class performers from all different disciplines and my guess today is Mike novogratz Michael novogratz at novogratz. That's novogratz on Twitter is the founder and CEO of Galaxy digital Galaxy digital. IO, he was formerly a partner and president of Fortress Investment Group LLC prior to Fortress Mister, no regrets been 11 years ago in the stacks where he was elected partner 1998 just never got served on the New York Federal reserve's investment advisory committee on financial markets from 2012 to 2015. Mike also serves as the chairman of the bail project and is made Criminal Justice Reform a focus of his family's Foundation. He serves as the chairman of Hudson River Park friends and sits on the boards NYU langone. I'm getting that correct Medical Center and Princeton Varsity Club.

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Jasmine edition of America and artists for peace and Justice Miss. No grass received a navy and economically from Princeton University and served as a helicopter pilot in the US Army Mike. Welcome to the show. Thanks a lot to him. And this is been a long time coming. I'm excited to have you on the show you have so many stories. Do you have an unvarnished personality and I are you have a chest as such a medley of experience that I'm glad that we were finally able to get on the phone to record this for public consumption. So thanks for making the time. I'm excited cuz I feel like we were separated at first man. You know, we have Long Island. We have Princeton we have wrestling as you put it a little bit crazy psychedelics meditation crypto. The list is long and I thought we could start with a place that might seem like a total non-sequitur, but I have to ask I was in preparation for this conversation reading a a really nice.

00:07:46
Play Don profile of the New Yorker written by Gary shteyngart. And there's a there's a phrase that came up multiple times that I have to ask you that which was Speed Racer pants. He kept on mentioning you're wearing speed Speed Racer path. What are what are these pants? I had a pair of white pants with a big red stripe on the side of them and they look like the pants to wear Fred Segal one day when I was just bored and I started wearing around and no one in New York was wearing striped pants. And so it was quite the thing for a fourth of a year and you seem to have a fair amount of lore surrounding you which certainly became even more clear as I was doing homework for this conversation and one of them is

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Piloting a helicopter down Prospect Avenue. Now, I like to know if that's true. And either way maybe you could explain what Prospect Avenue is, but did that actually happen did happen. I got a tendency to drink too much I think parties and you know Princeton has this reunions celebration every year where all the classes come by and and after the. This is a parade of ghetto people starting with the oldest graduate who knows off in a hundred hundred three years old all the way to the new grads everyone migrates in this Prospect Avenue in one year. I had to leave early for an event and I was like, okay just I'll show you off to my friends a little bit. So I got the helicopters Duty back to New York City and I asked the pilot if I could drive and we just buzzed Buzz Prospect Street as much to the thrill of my friends and probably the dismay of everyone else. So what was your Princeton experience like we're going to

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Zoom backwards in time to Childhood in just a little bit. But what was your experience like at Princeton a middle-class kids? So I showed up a little intimidated and you know, I thought I was high school and I show The Prince and I think I said not that smart. I thought it was a great wrestler in high school and I went to Prince and I got my butt whooped. I was like, I'm not that good of a wrestler and so you don't start off intimidated lots of ways and can I look back. I took easier classes then certainly my kids take to get how do I get through this place to survive it?

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Add ghetto athletically that flipped my junior year socially it's literally and that was probably the biggest positive. I can never really flipped. I never really felt maybe until I did my thesis like I was really a good enough student. Did it really feel smart enough to actually join the Army and I'm on a test with seven hundred other guys got first place and I was like to learn something interesting. The the positive side was socially I was adapted realize and I had my first roommate actually was Gloria Vanderbilt's son Carter Cooper who committed suicide years later, but he was kind of aristocracy rarest ocracy. I went to New York with insecurities as well and nice friends other than them teasing me about having my hair parted in the middle.

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Pull up back then but not New York City realize that rich guys middle-class guys use the same toilet tissue and and that part I think he'd be a lot of confidence in life that I could compete in SSI this point we were competing mostly for girls, but I can compete with with anybody and that sounds like a small little wind but it was actually I look back in a world lot of kind of conference started and you mention Athletics what flipped junior year if I'm remembering correctly for you and Athletics. I was a decent wrestler and I worked pretty hard at it and I just got good enough to make the varsity. So my first two years I was really on the junior varsity guy that was better than me. It's the same way too and he actually took a year off and said open the spot up for me and having that opportunity to wrestle and I just started doing better and better and I

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Play the eastern part of it. I made a national tournament in huge check Plus for you. You felt like a real guy in the wrestling community. And so I came back to see you're here ready to get ready to be an All-American. So is a whole shift of yo, my my confidence level against but also I really wish I was just getting strong and just getting good my senior year. I got always needed one more year if I want State wrestling my whole life what did wrestling give you as a leading question? I guess I should probably just ask what impact it had on you but having wrestled myself you wrestled longer than I did, but I'd love to hear in your words what part wrestling is played in your life if aside from the involvement that you had later with Beat the Streets in dense and the at the Olympics and so on.

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Almost like no other sport beats the hell out of you. I mean it is so tough from cutting weight to going out on the map by yourself and just getting crushed. And so you learn to pick yourself up after you get crushed in like okay. I got crushed that bad. I don't need to get crushed next match and I got to work a little harder and so it's resilience. If anything the traded bills and people is grit our resilience. When I started to Look Alot at wrestling and 14 of the 44 presidents United States had wrestling their background. There's no other town to town to Russel for money.

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Often that toughness in grit ends up in leadership. And so you see a lot of rest or is that move on in life and Leadership positions? So let's talk about the resilience at because when I pulled a never my friends and ask them what they would most like me to discuss with you it came back to resilience in some form or another ends in the New Yorker piece. There's there's one line which week we could also dissect if we wanted but to see the Princeton like Wall Street where no regrets is made at least three fortunes and lost at least two is full of stories about do you have this incredibly powerful and public hero's journey that you've traveled more than once and I want to read from a speech. This is the commencement speech in Iowa. I don't even know the story of how this came to be. But I hope we can get to that soon as it relates to grit. So you say as I've gotten older this is in the middle of the speech on this Earth to know.

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Play self where's my wife would say to sort of shit out into walk each other home. Most people. I've met don't start this journey until they've really screwed up. They've lost a job ruined marriage abuse drugs or alcohol destroy friendships or just can't get out of bed. I started my journey at 33 when I done most of the above. I was a rising star at Goldman Sachs. I was partner president respected Man In The Wall Street Community and then I wasn't right after I resign from Goldman. I literally thought my life was over I had ruined it. Okay. So this is winding its way to a question. So that's a little bit of back story for people who don't have familiarity. And the question is when that happened when you have what you might consider a public experience like that. How do you work your way through it like a psychologically and emotionally, what do you tell yourself? What helps a very curious to know how you dust yourself off and what you did that that help me for something. That was my first public humiliation failure.

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personal failure fail the people I worked with and

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it was painful and there's no two ways around it. And it was helpful that I had a support a family that were just letting me be that I wanted to depression and it took a while to kind of work out I was

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I had this narrative late I buy to ruin my life and I would never get it back. And I remember there was lots of little pieces of advice first. I had one lawyer. I was so worried but everyone thought about me to do me a favor write down on a piece of paper. The people that you think will be at your funeral when you die at 80 people think all those other people that are really think about you that much and that was kind of liberating cuz you as a partner Goldman Sachs every part of has left Goldman Sachs when you left you got this beautiful little memo about all you have done and you know, it was a it was a very nice way they exited partners and I just disappeared and I was not spoken about I was like, so I kept worrying. I was going to run into my ex Partners on the street be be so embarrassed and the first he helped me get over that just think about it, but an alarm and I end up going up for rehab in Arizona and

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I had to step aside therapist before he's a dude you talk so much. You got to go somewhere where you can tell your stories and have a safe space and there's a beautiful lipstick place in the middle of Phoenix or Tucson. Call Sierra Tucson and look by look on the pamphlet looks so nice. And so I went out there and you know one day one and I haven't had a drink or drug. There's got to be some of her three four five months of the time. But so I flew out there to check yourself into a mental health facility in my first roommate was in the throes trying to kick heroin and he was not having a good time of it and I like how this place but it was probably my first experience with really digging in and trying to sort out like what are the patterns of my life that was kind of traumatic in that, you know, the thesis that a lot of rehab centers use and addiction stop.

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Shoes that are these deep emotional scars either Big T traumas or Little T. Trauma is that people have a hard time dealing with and they start using some substance. It might be sex or alcohol or drugs or control of your food to medicate those feelings and that medication all of a sudden engine has you end up to a more stupid things that you need more of the medication Genesis cycle of it so that if you could get to those core issues, it would really help in your journey and sit around a circle with people in it when guys father took them in the spleen. He's lost a spleen when he's 12 and almost all the women that were bulimic or anorexic at supper in chest and I'm thinking here parents like what you know, I had a pretty nice and it was traumatizing not having the big trauma and neither one of my insights was sometimes the little trauma 10 years 20 years 30 years later can have just as much

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Psychological duress as big trouble, you know it is and so one man's pain is no different 10 years later. It's just pain or fear or an answer starting a search to find that out was unbelievably helpful. It also really started building an underdeveloped empathy muscle in the teacher of the year in Florida for like nine straight years and she had she was probably 45 years old and had a I had a relationship maybe 40 years old had a relationship with a senior and was even sexual but it was close to sexual and got caught and next thing, you know, she was the pride of the town and got thrown out of teaching in Clearwater shooter. And as you met her she was one of the nicest woman I met and she had a story. She had been abused by her both father and stepfather and I developed a relationship.

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I wish unfortunately then had a healthy relationship with a C or school but instead of being angry one of the lyncher you wanted a hug her and so that that process of trying to understand where where people's the states came from allowed me to start kind of forgiving myself a little bit. And then since I didn't really get to that place I realized maybe this is the trick of how to get started again. I just needed to create a new narrative and some of the narrative was fucked up. I went to try to understand how I fucked up that solves it all but I'm I'm starting over and eat it wasn't till 9/11 happened. I was trying to figure out what to do and when 9/11 happened my brother called me and he was in one of the big buildings right next to the Twin Towers supposed to do.

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And I was like bayura dollars. I was like by short-dated treasury contracts and I was like, okay raise guns screwed up and then I was with my young son who was like two at the time and I was

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Looking on the TV and I was like we got to go help so I go running to run down towards the Trade Center to see what was going on and he started crying at helping back and watched on TV, but my Army side of me wanted to participate and there was no real room for volunteers and I felt like I got to go do something and I realized I had it feels kind of my my Wall Street journey and I literally was a 911 insight and I went back to work at Fortress and luckily you don't have a lot of good luck and good great Partners, you have five or six years later. We decided we rang the bell at the stock market and you know, we were all billionaires and it was as kind of petty experience because the journey from you know, walking out of Goldman Sachs and having one senior partner say, well, you know, maybe it'll work again sometime but really feeling like you might never work again until six years later.

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Yeah, I feel like it on top of the world and I was going to head your eyes. What did your self care program if it existed look like between rehab and ringing the bell did anything change noticeably anytime from Habits or routines or anything that help doing that. So I gave up drinking for 13 months and I have been a man who loves parties who loves drinking who's but a very social Drinker my whole life and that was difficult is trying to be able to be social with a glass of wine or a beer Jack Daniel's to my hand was tough and I gave up recreational drugs and 40 months later. I did something which I think was important. I ran this thing called a marathon of the Sands which was six marathons in a row across the Sahara was one of the original Adventure races 700 people from Hunter.

00:23:34
Trees and you're literally right across the damn desert and it would get 230 degrees during the day and Frieza tights and a half way into and I was like to be alive and it just felt like what the fuck you're alive. That's a beautiful setting meeting new people and that was really the big trigger and so staying fit in a diagram a lot. But it was that push yourself in the Beyond comfort zone physically even and realize you're still alive, dude, you're not dead. And so that's that was right before the other night 11 have that was before September. That was really the turning point. Now they have to question where I felt like I can go back to work and then at Fortress, you know, there was a lot of stress at work because I felt like even though I thought I'd made some big breakthrough is there are parts of my story I had it sorted out one is why I carried all this pressure all the time. You know that stop it from being. Joyful.

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And so I get a exercise. I still I wasn't really in the meditation until probably 2006/2007, you know, so early on it was just exercised. My core issues were pressure but I'm a partner at Goldman Sachs. I felt relieved I've ever liked life on call me up. If you don't tell my wife is one was joyful days in my life even more than my wedding. I think that's what I should have said that voice become get yellow. I didn't feel that I felt relieved like I got checked that box. I was thinking, you know, I lost most of them because I felt so much pressure when I knew it was an important match. I want Restless well until I got a lot of second places and I would remember walking out of the mat feeling exhausted before hand and it took me awhile, not afraid. I remember the moment where I had my first insight

00:25:34
I had a the year before I invented this investor conference called life freaky. And Byron we used to run and he was a legend from Morgan Stanley. And this was the first legendary investor conference that you had to be a legend of be there and you had to share ideas and I got invited in 2006 probably maybe 2005 and it was such an honor to be there. I was one of the young guys and it had to give your three stories stocks or ideas and it came to me and the guy before me a used one of mine and I just was like it was one of those miserable five minutes of my life so much of the guy next to me was like dude, that wasn't that bad. But I've got a plane leaving soon if you want to go. I remember feeling all this.

00:26:34
House of my life. She was like dude, you hired all these people you just hired one of your best friends. He left his firm to work for you to like sort out and as luck would have it. I have this life where I stole the mentorship were founded her you have been gifted it, you know in strange places and I was one of my investors suggest that I have lunch with food Baroque who had been the prime minister of Israel and what are their great generals one of the idiom allegedly had the highest IQ in the Israeli Army and I was sitting with him and he was a Charming Charming guy later became friends and you looked at me so I think I figured you out.

00:27:15
Ghetto, you're not very smart cast investors of all time and I was like translate, you know, I'm not so smart and it was from Napoleon. I don't hire smart channels are lucky generals and it was and it was vetted tuition and that his Napoleon thought was these generals nowhere to be on the battlefield to the right of bacon pattern recognized the thing they have a certain intuition and we don't have a word for it. Therefore we call it luck and the mama he said that the way my brain function as an investor the way I operated life is like that but I know I have paterak like I'm actually and I realized I didn't know.

00:28:15
Once I knew what I needed to make investments to make decisions, I didn't need to fulfill what you think I needed right? I remember being so worried when I was at like four key that's always going to ask me who the Finance Minister of Russia was because I was telling my own all these Russian rubles and I forgot the guy's name, but I need to know the guys name for my investment conference other people might and that was liberating and from the moment that happened I could tell the story of how I made investment decisions and has so much more copies. I had that my headphone went from 300 million to 2 billion in 6 months to returns without the most important to Joy showed up. It was more fun. And I know I can always if I need to sit in front of the screen sort out markets in and made money from them. And so, you know, what are the great breakthroughs let he was was from this guy who was a famous Jewish generals Israeli General

00:29:15
Question, but the show is all about sidetracks. Those are usually for the interesting. Ali's have all sorts of tidbits. So let's dig into intuition because this seems to show up again and again in your life ends. I be very curious to know let's just say that 6-month. Where you go vertical basically in assets under management, how have you learned? If you have to discern intuition and pattern recognition from say overconfidence, right or irrational confidence in a position or a trade or something like that how you learn to wield and discern what is what the world the world's best speculators or macro Traders?

00:30:00
Have two things in common.

00:30:03
They have this pattern recognition intuition. I put that one buckets and then they have discipline and

00:30:11
I sent the three things and then they have an unbelievable competitive spirit and still I look at guys like Stan druckenmiller and Paul Jones and I was faking it wasn't because I spoke to another sense of their understanding of Marcus or intuition. Their discipline was just better. It was just for the night but there were competitive strength or a weakness. But they are you watch that Michael Jordan documentary and the one thing that every single person who watches it comes out as he cared. So he was the most competitive man. I think I've ever seen anything like a shorter the great speculators are very competitive like that.

00:31:07
Very well by almost any standards but not of the legend standard. I know who the Legends are cuz I've been around them if I think about that a lot and I'm trying to figure out you know, that that's not all terrible. Like you'd like some more discipline and I think it was allowed to have a more diverse life and some of my peers but I think about that but that's how you feel. Only way you end up trusting your intuition to get to your question is to have some set of rules that you manage your risk by your life by your because you're you're still anxious like we're learning to trust ourselves. I think I'm right. I think it does business. I think not that I know you really think like this lines up. I'm almost positive Bitcoins going to go up right now. But if it doesn't you've got to have some circuit breaker that says I could have been wrong. No one's right on it for some of the time was right 80% of the time and so you need a circuit breaker.

00:32:07
That's a series of rules that you manage your portfolio by manager Life by lots of ways and that's what really helps and that's right off of let myself down a little bit and that's sometimes just trying to do too many things. Sometimes you don't just not being talking about myself, but that's the challenge of anyone who goes in my business. It's those it's really hard to learn that you're actually good at it because you know, it's not a skill that you how do you say intuition? It takes a long time for you to trust yourself and then a Dia Hold Steady really having your portfolio constantly being a collection of your guesses 19 out of 20 people that try to be traitors that sentence is inconsistent with them 90% of the time. Could you elaborate on that?

00:33:07
Markets going up but I'm not going to buy it yet, but I'm going to buy a little bit but still calls on it. So they hear my TV if he says I think the Market's going up you can better believe he's long it out and just for people who are are not in the investing world. So long meaning he is exposing the simplest iteration buying things with the expectation. They will appreciate value apologies. I love being speculated that translates into the battle date life and you know it listening I guess if you're investing in movies, you have some algorithm in your head or written algorithm of what you think makes for a good vet. And so you invest your nephew in that at one point, right your track record your wins vs. Losses are going to tell you are you good at this but

00:34:07
Really taking the time to understand what that algorithm is. Like, how do you make decisions in investing in movies are investing in small businesses right at your venture capitalist? And so what am I inside? So it's always like any one of those processes you taking information you process it through an algorithm and you have to then Managed IT like manage the risk of it somehow and something that I used that process and lots of things but not every job job because the more tuition based the investing is the more anxiety there is if you are an arbitrageur you buy something for you know, what's $8 on one market sell it for ten on another. There's not a whole lot of risk. And so that is just being commercial. And so I always tell people that you got to try to understand yourself and figure out where your DNA where your

00:35:07
Personality type fits it in the space. Let's come back to one of the names you mentioned and that's Paul Jones or Paul Tudor Jones who has hit the news quite widely in the last few weeks because of his extensive discussion of Bitcoin specifically in one of his memos. I'm not sure if he refers to the Miz memos or letters or something else, but nonetheless this is made the rounds at debts. Paul Tudor Jones has dearest Bitcoin for institutional investors Here Comes Wall Street, etcetera you refer to yourself as the Forrest Gump of Bitcoin. So I'll give you two questions and you can choose which one you want to tackle. First one is why are you the forest of Bitcoin and then the second is how are you different from Paul Tudor Jones? Like how do you guys I know you know each other quite well, how are you? Most different are most similar?

00:36:05
Grade investor that started talking about it, you know For Better or Worse you go back and when it was trading around a hundred I was on and it was I promise my partner's quite frankly that we wouldn't talk about crypto because Fortress was a real asset company and we were going to talk with you digital assets and I was at some conference. I didn't know the Press was there. I made some witty comments about the coins and the next day. I was on the cover of the Fast Times and then I got sucked into Bitcoin because everyone would call me after what I thought. It was a thing. I'm going to go higher but partly by being forced to publicly speak about it. I got asked to speak at the Oxford Union and I really had to study. I don't understand how the damn thing works. And so I became kind of an unofficial spokesperson are one of the unofficial spokesperson for it. Paul and I are as close.

00:37:05
In terms of what we have done. We're and similar businesses his was bigger and in a little bit better. He's been a role model in philanthropy in Spirit Lake if I had an older brother 10 years were different and my parents didn't tell me about it would be Paul and so it's fun to see him getting involved in Bitcoin for me personally. It's important because you know I said, I was pretty damn good but Paul is one of those Legends of his stature in the whole macros space in the last 30 years. And so for him to get involved it basically says this is this is a real macro instrument. So there's no more debate on is Bitcoin. It might not always go out you might not put in your portfolio, but there's no shame in being involved with this space anymore. And that's a big deal because

00:38:00
Four stores of value in Bitcoin is really becoming a store of value they only value when people believe they are and so it's a belief system is not just a code. It's really the social construct. I saved this you say it's therefore it is this and so we already have Jack Dorsey who's Twitter handle says Bitcoin and Abby Johnson Fidelity be preggers from Fortress at all, but personally are other businesses involved with it wences casares and Mickey melchor of these are going to Legends in their space pause the first the legend of the astral space identify a person but he bought his fund and so it opens up a whole new Avenue of a potential participants in that Community, which I think is really really messing up again, if we had to put on the the Hat of forecaster or Nostradamus at what do you predict if you're comfortable going for it with

00:39:00
Bitcoin cryptocurrency, it said around the next let's just call it 12 months. It's currently May 18th when we were record this 2029 T600 dollars per Bitcoin right now. I think we'll take out 10,000 soon. And then the year closer to 20,000 the old Hyde once these store values start building momentum. There's not a lot of Supply we've had this thing called to have anywhere. There's half the supplies being mind. Then there was even a week ago, but mostly the stories finally catching broader adoption and it's not just hedge funds to buy it. You're going to see wealth managers start selling it to their clients through products. We have us a Bitcoin that's targeted c5280 year olds in America that buy their that make their own decisions through TD Ameritrade or Charles Schwab or Goldman Sachs.

00:40:00
Investment advisors in the Millennials. It's been bought on coinbase app or Square Robin Hood of those things aren't going away to write Facebook's calibra is going to allow you buy Bitcoin without me 2000 3000 people using that wallet. And so there are so many more Avenues of access. I was tell people if it was easy to buy the price would be far higher already has been hard to buy and a year from now is going to be that much easier.

00:40:34
So I guess I'm really bullish going to listen. I don't have time by say really because you have these things are recorded and come back later people God damn stupid in at work. And so you're cautious to be that bullish publicly, but I haven't seen things lineup as well in a long time. Let's rewind the clock is Promised but feels like an hour or so ago, maybe maybe a little bit less to family. And I know this is a load of like Memento as in town on linear. This is but you grew up in a big family. It seems like with with no shortage of strong personalities. Could you describe for folks? What's your family was like what your childhood was like growing up?

00:41:22
Sheriff sale for people of my age that used to watch John Hughes movies like Pretty in Pink and Sixteen Candles. That was pretty much the neighborhood I grew up in like we were straight up the middle Suburban middle-class All American Family RV officer. So he was a major go to Vietnam twice when I was very young a major that lieutenant colonel for like my my growing up years old republic high school. We had Seven Oaks at Houston 1 and 1/2 L 2 bathrooms one for my parents want for the rest of us are the Prussian the blow-dryer fact that you blow dry your hair. If you're a cool, dude, my mother didn't go to college. She got married when she was a teen to my dad because of their 60th anniversary anniversary.

00:42:22
We got a job on a football player and my mother thought we should you know, we should be there but why not us and so she was the one that kind of drove the pressure to succeed by Justin up like, you know, we used to complain about kids and she says jump off a bridge the same old saying that most of excellence in the background in the state. You would see the least braggadocio guy very humble, but he didn't have to say much cuz my mom from my dad that he had done this football player got to get back and I looked back at like we had seven kids fighting over one brush.

00:43:22
You know we were up yet. I was a Catholic Family. There's lots of love involved by Bobby come from the be extended family as well. And so we felt special and it was special to being over grass and my mother made it special to be enough so we ran for office at the student elections and you know, it didn't always win actually lost most of the time but the third grader running for class president came from I think parents that made you feel special and stuff like it was not and he was a military guy and he grew up in Austrian immigrant family. And so we got whacked around love my brother and I always complain that by the time my little brothers and sisters who are there was a seven-year gap between the top three in the bottom of work and Ralph my parents are soft but this big family all the time. The one thing that I'm sure that came out of it was

00:44:18
You're willing to take more risk in life when you know, if you screw up. There's people are going to catch you there's brothers and sisters that I love you anyway, and they also on the flip side when you're doing really well. They don't buy that stick either but they they applauded but you're not more special just cuz you made a bunch of money. I got this award. And so it's humbling. Is it safety on the downside of a tumbling on the other side? And so we've all drafted off of each other and I was laughing so, you know, it's a pain in the ass. Such a famous sister cuz Wherever I Go by Sister cuz she's always thinks the world of few words about that because people may not recognize Jackie equals Jacqueline Jacqueline novogratz just a few words about York. You say a few words better.

00:45:18
And she want to change the world then so she would like a brownie That Girl Scouts and she started this organization the Acumen fund which was really kind of the father of venture philanthropy or impact investing and has spent her whole life trying to figure out how to do shading systems how to do invest in the poorest of you know, this citizens on this planet to build permanent structures around housing in and water in education and really to change the conversation to start with a conversation of dignity and you know, she's a huge following in that development world of the conference World. She's got

00:46:00
Get out of branches all over the world. Now young acolytes don't want to be like her and so, you know, it's what I noticed about her and I know it's been some other leaders but not many is that she's not know True North like she's a most people in myself included. I try to be a pretty good guy and I do a lot of good stuff but my compass gets out of kilter plenty of times out of kilter because I get excited about something. I lose my own focus and I put my sister and special pocket. I am Bryan Stevenson on my heroes from equal justice initiative who's really one of our great civil rights leaders. Probably never not know true north. And so listen it's inspiring to be around those people. Sometimes humbling and frustrating.

00:47:00
But it's good to have around because a ground you little bit.

00:47:08
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00:48:31
City spoke earlier of fueling an immense pressure say going out on the wrestling mat or at the investment conference coming up to your your 5 minutes and so on you have a large family many high Achievers in that family. Do you think any part of that comes from a pressure or expectation to succeed that was made explicitly or implicitly clear from your parents. And I know that's a very binary question, but I'm just curious to know if it was I think it was more implicitly, you know, my mother was very good at making us all feel like we were the special one and for whatever reason from kindergarten on like teachers treated me bad, but everybody else by parents and so I literally remember if I got to get an A in like first grade on the way home taking the paper crumpling up and throw it in the sewer.

00:49:31
I don't think it's incomprehensible for me to think that a five or six or seven year old would throw a paperweight didn't get it at a very young age. So I talked all the time that I was going to be a senator and my mother is a little kid you pick up shoes that my parents never meant to put pressure on their kids, but you pick up cues and they become your operating system operated with that system if I still have a little bit of empty for so long. Time that I need to be perfect. So I am never cheating like I know.

00:50:31
Guardian class like that's pressure was irrational. And of course by my freaking dad never told a lie is another choirboy. They're not going to condone cheating on a high school test. My mother wouldn't condone it but like and so is interesting. I talked earlier about Big T. Cha by little like a little heat Rama picking up some story for me was just as powerful as it up on four sleepers other people haven't gotten beaten up. And so that I can thank you. A guy. I have a loving mom at an interesting about them as they've gotten nicer nicer with each year. So my dad's 83 my mom Stephanie night and you literally just fun to see parents grow and change and and so I got nothing but great things to say, but I do think and then I said that in that speech

00:51:31
And how their parents impacted them and then understand it to let it go and love their parents and you know, it took me a long time to figure out where that pressure came from anybody there.

00:51:46
Let's let's come back to this page because this might be related. What what I'm about to ask. Do you have I would not call it a small tattoo on your forearm. Can you describe can you describe this tattoo for people please? I have a 4 arm length Jaguar black Puma, but you might think of it as a Jaguar big black Puma tattoo there goes from my basically the whole length of my right forearm that I got literally my brother and give me a tattoo for Christmas a few years earlier and after my first Ayahuasca experience where I literally on day three Transformers G1 Puma a panther and growls and crawled around the floor two nights in a row and was so moved by the whole beauty of that experience. I just thought I would get a small tattoo.

00:52:46
Walked into the famous tattoo parlor called Smith Street tattoos for my brother had you know it up tattoo on my shoulder and the guy looked at me and he was like dude with all respect your old ass fuck and kitty litter to to get a tattoo that people can see and I was like, I was such a genius, you know, what he hears the truth are my love it. I have to say I love it gives me power. I realize your forearms don't get flabby like the one part of your body that stays fit. If so, do you mentioned Ayahuasca and this experience - the Puma in this Commencement Address? Why did you why did you decide to include that? It was my first time I worked hard on it.

00:53:46
And the thesis was know thyself and there's so many ways one can learn about themselves and and that Journey that I went on and in Costa Rica was powerful and I end up getting different things from it that I thought I would.

00:54:04
But afterwards I was trying to convince my sister and brother laws. They should do this and I really been started thinking boring people that have bipolar mental health issue. Would an Ayahuasca trip not benefit someone as much as I might be tough and scary like should we put every politician in the world to that experience before they're allowed to serve and so I was like if you're young college student and you're physically okay to do this. Is there anything bad I couldn't come up with it. And so I thought, you know, I'll talk about it publicly part of this wasn't a chapter of part of speech. D stigmatizing mental health things we need to do as a society is to allow that people have mental health issues that depression is real and and that

00:55:02
You know people have shit to work through and that we should help them work through that and you know both psilocybin and Ayahuasca are I just think two things in that tool kit powerful things in that Georgia is how one can process trauma want to learn about themselves we can dig into the places that they haven't understood before and once you see it, you can't unsee it. That's true. I have a sister that went down after I get to the same same place and I was laughing about being a fool and she's like a goddamn next thing, you know, her her hands were becoming kind of furry and like a cat and she hates cats and next thing, you know, she climbed up this ladder and she's looking at in the front or back to this high school and ice cream. So I like being a little little school.

00:56:02
Theater where she was the Shire cat looking out of the audience and Irene. She told me the story. I remembered I was the older brother sitting there. She was probably my sister and after the play I could never tell you. She stole the show. She stole the show. She was so great for her coming off what she song is Ayahuasca trip was all the other girls being mean to her cuz she was getting all the attention and interesting enough her whole life. She never put her head up again. She always has been unbelievably support of everyone. She is literally our support system in our family and she came out like a six-year-old girls. I do remember and so like again once you see it,

00:56:54
Get up now. She's got her own podcast and she's put her head up. And so I find I find out that sweet story to tell cuz it's not so, you know damn Lili personal but there's so many opportunities like that. I figured, you know, why time at least two broad of the conversation, but it was where I was invited to speak. So I'd love to highlight two lines from that speech and one is in the middle of a paragraph. So I'll just highlight verbally one portion of it really but it was discussing your time at holistic health center in the desert Arizona 28-day rehab center. And it says the 28 days didn't fix me or change me know just give me a start understanding who I was what forces controlled me and then here's the part that really jumped out at me what stories in my life were so strong. I didn't even realize they were stories.

00:57:52
Right. So now I'm zooming out because many of the stories we have our narratives about ourselves in the world.

00:58:00
May not be stories were aware our stories. They're just our reality and they're often stories that were given to us inadvertently or purposefully and we're not aware that we've absorbed them. So my question relates to the next line and that is coming back to the Ayahuasca the lesson I learned in my last ceremony was that this medicine this process was meeting me where I was and that was gentleness. You must start my being gentle to yourself. So like you I think you've competed at a much higher level in many many Arenas, but I've always been very very very very competitive and to the extent where being second place has often for me then worse than being 15th. Place prize, like second place is first loser type of mentality, but I've been very mean to myself in the same way this those six year old girls were to your sister. And so that that has been kind of internalized.

00:59:00
And I'd be curious to know what is helped you to be gentle or more gentle with one of the two it. Yeah, you think as a writer I would have the same as figured out but what is helped you when a lot of people would view in a competitive notice as your superpower, right? And it's such a driver. How have you how have you learned to be better that work in progress? I remember before going down there. I feel like I'm easy going guy, and I don't lose my temper. So, I think I'm a nice boss and I hate my uncle yellow people at all offended and I told my

00:59:44
Lawyer has been with me for 10 years. I see absolutely no fucking easy boss. You are such a tough boss. She said you're nice, but you're tough and you never give you like a pretty good but around the best party like only and they're like, you just realized it be nice to people too. Nice yourself. I never thought I was tough on myself because I let myself get away with the stuff inside me to rehab for drinking or drugs or you're breaking the rules will break my whole life since I thought that's what you can do that. You're not really being tough on yourself. Those are two different subject matters. I did the rest of that stuff cuz I was so tough on myself and that was shut up. You don't get it for you only and that internal tanks. I think some of it was just getting older and I think with success there's a little less pressure.

01:00:44
And some of it is now just try to have awareness of it and say it's not that important but I think I pulled my plays that's a little but not a lot yet. If so, you know, it's a work-in-progress noticed it with my father and my father was this great-looking guy football star time in the Army always was nice to people went to Vietnam twice and it was painful our family because of course you want your dad to succeed in and the military is like not making partner at Goldman Sachs. There's a hierarchy and either get it or you don't and and it was painful for my parents for my mother behind it. And there's always some specs story.

01:01:39
But I remember thinking 20 years later like looking at my father at 7983 and 2nd you think he gives a rat's ass that he didn't make General any more like his priorities and shut that he was so happy to be around his family and the work he was doing and how we were all told you that that ego piece. He just let it go and you know, I don't act like you let it go he let it go. And so I think there's something about aging gracefully where you let that shit go because it just doesn't really matter nearly as much as you think it doesn't the time and I think seeing that is helps, you know act like Dad don't act like a jackass was kind of my feet my internal Cohan contract.

01:02:30
But for real estate to work in progress like you it's kind of built into the DNA of like wanting to do things right when I throw a party I want to be a great party and you know, I force my persistence one spot attempt. It was too big and I love it. It was like, I died a thousand deaths. I saw this 10. I knew we had two other people come to the party. We had a tent big enough for 300 and all the energy.

01:03:01
That's process. What advice do you think your older self 10 20 years older would give to your current self.

01:03:11
I say you're you're you're okay. I guess you're doing fine. You're doing Grace is what I have a shrink by my wife calls in the greatest the neighbor of all-time highlights pay some confession. He's a great friend. He's become up. He's not really in front of my life might only met him three times. So I had a great time with him every time I met him but he's a dear friend of Paul Jones. I gotta eatta Pita gosk you and has a famous business where he was like a posture expert and then it was movement that he come back from Vietnam War healed himself and he healed thousands and thousands of people celebrities athletes ask you about that. It's called and what do you mean him you go through this process? He gives you a menu of exercises.

01:04:08
How to get your back is philosophy is if your body's alignment you'll be in alignment your your emotions with the alignment. And so I went to meet him the first time you're supposed to be at our meeting and we got like 3 hours talking and I'm waiting for my menu with my money my money that's a very heavy so no Beauty to strip down naked stand in front of the mirror everyday for 15 minutes and just accept yourself.

01:04:32
Getting getting back and calling Paul Jones and he laughed hysterically and I think that's my 20 years from now. Hopefully mine telling just accept yourself and that was a little bit so I have to ask did you try the 15 minutes for the mirror follow-through like you needed me to?

01:05:11
Well work in progress as we all are like you said, let's chat about Criminal Justice Reform. I know this is incredibly important to I don't know the Genesis story. I don't know how this became important to you said I'd love to hear you describe how that came to be honey. You know, I guess I'm talking to my mother bring me the head start when I was four or five years old and it's idea philanthropy being part of our family, but the more practical side was I saw Bryan Stevenson speak once and was wildly impressed that he gave his kind of seminal speech and some that was in the back of my head and then my daughter Anna got a job at thing called the Bronx Defenders.

01:05:59
Where she was a twenty-year-old summer intern and she was tramping around the Bronx collecting evidence for her lawyers cases sound like you're probably the evidence collector. Like why do you not like she's getting video from bodegas? And I'm like, you're you're the defense team and how is lichen so I was impressed with the work she did and I was like, wow, that's what Public Defense is and stride made this movie with Nate Parker when I say maid, I didn't do anything other than invest Nate Parker was a good friend of mine has a wrestler. She had this dream of making this movie called Birth of a Nation and blurry after 15 Jack Daniels. You can just be to invest but I really don't want an independent movie. Just thinking I'd lose all my money, but it was very persuasive and he's a winner inside out on

01:06:55
And it won every award at Sundance it sold for more money than any independent film ever to this day still that we sold for $18 and it was a painful and beautiful movie but there's a big lynching seed in it and I saw Bryan Stevenson who was building a lynching Museum. That's why she's going to take my profits or some of my profits and give it to Brian and but I surprised you got to come and have breakfast at my house. And so he came and Chris my daughter hijacked the practice but we we had breakfast and really hurt his story that personally that bunch of questions a girl justice system, but I just started getting angry and then

01:07:39
There was a thing called audacious get out of the year cryptocurrency went too much higher. I made a whole lot of money on this thing called aetherium and you know to some of you it felt like Wampum me about love the way up in price and I sold it and it was a breathtaking amount of money and I wanted to do something fun for myself and I wanted so I didn't feel so guilty and see cuz I thought it would have been, just as given equal amount to something else. So I bought a G550 I never had yet to learn about a body in and I heard this story about cash bail on a portable cash pale that Robin Steinberg told it is a really simple story there a half a million people that go to bed every night in jail cell solely because I can't afford to pay bail and you know the average Bale we paid this somewhere close to $1,800. Most people in America don't have $500. Most people getting arrested.

01:08:39
Access the $500. So I stay in jail there seven times more likely to plead guilty if they're in jail, and if they're not in jail, but we bail them out 50% of the time the da drops the charges when you're in jail, 40% of all prison death in prison rape happens the first day of 14 days are there and it has horrific long-term consequences for the person and the and the city and it just felt so stupidly. I just that I impulsively said I will donate a bunch of money in share this thing the bail project and then I woke up and I was like both projects by a factor of 30 or more in the country. You better understand the criminal justice landscape. And so I hired got a billy Watterson who's been an A+ and a small team and we started mapping out.

01:09:31
Activist come in formerly incarcerated people come in visiting prisons and jails and with every Rock we looked under you just get more more pissed you didn't. It is a system of stupidity is a system of spite meanest there is nothing rehabilitative at all. It's racially oppressive. It's literally like let's figure out how we can strip people their dignity and public Hazard and it doesn't have to be that way. We participate on a trip. We took 35 people said Norway and Germany. Are you look at the German prisons and you would give him a 95 out of a hundred and you give Norway 99 out of 100 and we're not a 60 and we're like a 14 like we're that bad. And so it just angry.

01:10:27
Airfare to San always been a thing in my life as a grown up middle-class if I was not fair that we could set up you better start than I did and it out talk about not fair middle class today to Rich Kids. The prison system is just absolutely unfair in it, you know what phrase on communities that are already in direst statistics 95% of women in prison have been raped. So we're taking people that have been traumatized and put him into a trauma machine. Like what the fuck think that's a good idea. And so anyway, I can I get angry thinking about it. But so we we've got involved. I think we're on the board of this thing called reform Alliance, which is been fun. Great work around Probation and Parole in inlets Jay-Z and Meek Mill and Robert Kraft and we have to get up participated and funded her partially funded by 15-22

01:11:27
Organizations and really has been a big part of my life. I still did not ask to be fair. I'm less than three years in and so I'm a good enough story. Tell her that I can tell the story other people's stories in hear them, but we need a complete overhaul. The only there was like only $109 and four Lance be coming into the space and four years later than six hundred million dollars are far more. It feels like the ball start your roll downhill disco birthday is really Shine the Light on just how horribly was Rita the most beautiful people. I look before I came on. There are 15 countries that have d carcerated by 18% Italy Iran of places France right there like, okay should I keep people in prison when they're going to die because of this damn virus the US has about two and a half percent. And so well, that's a lot of people right?

01:12:27
Bulkmatic jails not presence is one year and under and often free trial and prison is when you're the longer and so we just haven't gotten around to saying it would be sexist and we're way off. Our sentences are three times longer than Germany's for the same crime just me.

01:12:51
And for people who would like to learn more about this, are there any starting points? You would recommend I talk or a website or anyting else cuz it really gives a framework of where this all started right it started with slavery and we've never really dealt with the trauma of slavery Robin Steinberg Ava tedtalk fantastic about bail and the bail project and Philip golf to let the team of golf did what about policing and feel like we're not in a place where like, okay Police Department actually, you know, I have data so they can be no be fair and how they please and so yeah, that's a controversial one cuz he threatened you can't you got to have people all engaged all parties have to be engaged in Taipei to make a better system.

01:13:51
Unlock my cage match, you know criminal justice because Jared kushner's father spent time in jail is one of the few things that the administration's been. Okay on a crepe myrtle Circle K. The first step Act was a great start, you know Nathan helpful. And so to put it in perspective with 2.3 million people in jail or prison and having a whole lot analysis on this app. I think that should be 800,000 and that's a little big difference. We have 5 million people to go to prison every year so I can get up here. It's like a revolving door and then stay an average of 45 days two and a half million going there just for violating parole, which is bizarre. We should have nobody on parole. And so we have a long way to go and I fear you pass one or two asked you to clear victory in the numbers never change. And so we're working on try to get like a scoreboard. So the whole country can say, all right. This is where we think we need to get.

01:14:51
A people agree to it and then work to get there. I want to shift gears just a little bit too few questions. I'd like to ask a lot of my guess and if any of them are dead ends we can we can scrap but I'm curious to know what if any are books that you've given an often as gifts to other people. There's one but that I've given 40 copies away. Probably it is called reminiscence of a stock operator. And for anyone who wants to be a traitor horde investor, this is the Bible it was written in 1932 by a guy who was at that time. Maybe the world's greatest Speculator. Jesse Livermore is the fictional character and what's crazy about it is you can read it today in 2020 and it literally is still the Bible and so every great traitor and a Tate's it tear Pages out of it. I used to be an Italian people.

01:15:51
I haven't read any books and I was like, okay go ahead and come back when you get a job and she wrote the book The guy committed suicide just couldn't take the he lost his fortune yet again, but every rule that you need to do. The discipline side of it is all in that box. And so and it's a region 3 hours. I want to ask about because you mentioned earlier that you run into certain people who seem to have a finely-honed truenorth. They've had since age eight someone like your sister or as some of the names that you mentioned when you feel unfocused or overwhelmed scattered filling your adjectives.

01:16:51
Even temporarily what are you do you personally if you're feeling like you've committed to me things are just not sure how Focus your energies are there. Anything you do to refocus say no for me saying I was like been the hardest thing you didn't want to disappoint Prince comes comes from my mother. Would it be to be a senator and still learning how to say no and draw a boundary that has been really important to me and it's hard for me and helps me and actually the only thing is writing it all on a whiteboard. So it takes it out of my stress own under the Whiteboard not like okay. I see it all. But at least it's up there on the board. I can put boxes around and I can start packing and so I think that's probably the most powerful is literally getting all out of my head and putting it and I'm a very visual person

01:17:51
What's a like it's different for me like a whiteboard or a big piece of paper is different than writing notes type of little boxes and I say okay, there's mine and like one of the stress Points Walmart that uses a whiteboard very similarly. I need to get a whiteboard. It's like envelopes and Diary of a Madman scraps of paper. I think I need to do you have any quotes that you live your life by her think of often Amino that are there any any that come to mind for you? But not just yet.

01:18:51
The story and I was like what like part of that is that tension always between doing what you're supposed to do when you know, you're supposed to do and what you want to do. And so I do think I can I laugh at that quote but I do hold that tension in you knowing in my hands part being alive is being impulsive and breaking really I take a personality test and I just I'm 37 out of 40 as a rule breaker. So just keep off the grass if he keeps off the grass. He doesn't drink because he's not old enough to drink ice-cold drinks other than my one son.

01:19:51
And I'm so impressed at how confident he is with his ability to put up boundaries into say that for me that quote important because it holds Us in his intention. Just a few more questions. This is what I'm on investing but it's a little broader than financial instruments could be the what is the best or most worthwhile personal investment you've made or just one of your your better investment that could be an investment of money time energy or other resources to Maita. Can you trade a little bit lucky and I was already rich guy and so it came natural to me, but what I think about my

01:20:51
Lights and what is a joy it is the circles of friendships. I have my highlights of my life is this party? I throw every two to four years depending on how we doing where 300 people 350 people from my universe get together and we play sports and listen to music and drink too much and and it's a three-day event that takes a huge bat at 4 to put on but I feel like most complete in some ways like this is my! On the world and how I want to live and so for me, it's friendships College friendships work friendships, or otherwise, if you don't have new shared experiences there just go away and welts it comes back to what you mentioned earlier in a way which was the advise you received is looking at who's at your funeral friend worrying about those people and no one else has been extremely fun. Is there anything

01:21:51
Else you'd like to add anything else you'd like to discuss or mention before we wrap up abroad by your listeners was great. I remember meeting you freaking probably 12 13 years ago when you're writing up and cover and it's been awesome and just because you like a princess but I've been amazed at you know, the following you built has Adventures you've been on I still go back to the house. I was telling you this your first book of the testosterone chapter and the and the orgasm chapter are required reading but I got to get on your shower congrats and all the success. Thanks so much Mike the other four hour body chapters do with so many vagina illustrations that it got yanked from Costco. That's my claim to fame.

01:22:51
And that it's been nice to get to know you and adults should get all their teenage boys. Chapter and they will have girlfriends. Well Mike thank you again for taking the time and to everybody listening. You can find Mike on Twitter at novogratz. You can learn more about the Galaxy digital video bio. I'll put links to everything in the show now. It's all the books TED Talks organizations that we've discussed and until next time. Thanks for listening.

01:23:28
Hey guys, this is Tim again. Just a few more things before you take off. Number one. This is five. Bullet Friday. Do you want to get a short email from me? And would you enjoy getting a short enough for me? Every Friday? Is that provides a little morsel of fun for the weekend and five Fridays every short email rice share the coolest things I found or that I've been pondering over the week that could include favorite new albums that have discovered that could include gizmos and gadgets and all sorts of weird shit that I've somehow dug up in the other world of the esoteric as I do. It could include favorite articles that I have read and that I've shared with my close friends for instance and it's very short. It's just a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend. So if you want to receive that check it out just go to four hour work week. Com, that's four hour work week. Com all spelled out and just drop in with your email and you will get the very next one and if you sign up, I hope you enjoy.

01:24:29
This episode has brought you by element spelled l m n t What on earth is element? It is a delicious sugar-free electrolyte drink mixed. I've stocked up on boxes and boxes of this is one of the first things that I bought when I talk open coming down the pike and I usually used one to two per day element is formulated to help anyone with their electrolyte needs and perfectly suited to folks following a keto low carb or paleo diet or if you drink a ton of water and you might not have the right balance that's often when I drink it or if you doing any type of endurance exercise mountain biking etcetera another application you've ever struggled to feel good on keto low carb or paleo. It's most likely because even if you're consciously consuming electrolyte, you just not getting enough and it relates to a bunch of stuff like a hormone called aldosterone blah blah when insulin is low, but supposed to say this is where elements again spelled lmnt can help. My favorite flavor by far is Citrus salt, which is a side note. You can also use to make a

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Kickass no sugar Margarita Bud for special occasions. Obviously, you're probably already familiar with one of the names behind it. Robb wolf r o b d Robb wolf who is a former research biochemist and two times York Times bestselling author of The Paleo Solution and wire to eat Rob created element by scratching his own itch. That's how it got started his Brazilian jiu-jitsu coach has turn them on to electrolytes performance enhancer thinks flex and Fan company was born. So if your on a low-carb diet or fasting electrolytes play a key role in relieving hunger cramps headaches tiredness and dizziness sugar artificial ingredients coloring all that's garbage unneeded. There's none of that an element and a lot of names you might recognize are already using almond is recommend to be by one of my favorite athlete friends three Navy SEAL Teams as prescribed by their Master Chief Marine units FBI sniper teams, at least five NFL teams who have subscriptions. They are the exclusive hydration Partners A Team USA way.

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Lifting and on and on you can try it risk-free. If you don't like it element will give you your money back. No questions asked they have extremely low return rates. So get an element lmnt came up with a very special offer for you guys are created. Tim's Club. Just go to drink elements.com Tim select subscribe and Save in these promo code Tim's Club to get the 30 cal box of element for only $36. This would be valid for Lifetime in a subscription and you can pause at a time. So again, check it out. It's a drink lmnt. Com Tim for this exclusive offer using promo code hens Club One More Time drink lmnt element. So drink lmnt. Com Tim and promo code can Club check it out.

01:27:17
This episode has brought you by PornHub just kidding. This episode has brought you buy four sigmatic, which is part of my morning routine also part of my afternoon routine routine saves. So there are a number of ways that I use for sigmatic in the mornings. I regularly start with their mushroom coffee instead of regular coffee and it doesn't taste like mushroom. Let me explain this. First of all zero sugar zero calories half the caffeine as regular coffee easy on my stomach tastes amazing. And all you have to do is add hot water. I used travel packets. I've been to probably a dozen countries with various products from four sigmatic and their mushroom coffee is topping list. That's number one. I travel with it. I recommend it. I give it to my employees. I give it two house guests. So you're one of the 60% of Americans are more who drink coffee daily. The stuff is amazing. That's

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One that is the cognitive enhancement side easy on the system side energize inside. The next is actually there chaga tea which tastes delicious. It is decaf completely decaf and some may recognize chaga. It is nicknamed the king of the mushrooms. It is excellent for immune system support. So needless to say I'm focused on that right now myself and so I will often have that in the afternoons. They make all sorts of different mushroom Blends if you are doing exercises, I am on a daily basis to keep myself sane cordyceps, excellent for endurance. They've a whole slew of options. You can check out every single batch is third party lab tested for any Metals allergens all the bad stuff to make sure that what gets into your hands is what you want to put it in your mouth and they always offer a 100% money back guarantee. I've worked out an exclusive offer with four sigmatic on their best selling lion.

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Mean coffee I literally have a mug pulled in front of right now and this is just for you my dear podcast listeners receive up to 39% off if know how we got their best selling lion's mane coffee bundles playing the steel. You must go to four sigmatic. Com Tim is offers only for you and is not available on their regular website. Go to four sigmatic does f o u r s i g m a t i c. Com Tim get yourself some awesome and delicious mushroom coffee full discount applied at checkout.
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