New Books in Religion - Alyssa Gabbay, "Gender and Succession in Medieval and Early Modern Islam" (I.B. Tauris, 2020)

In this episode, we speak with Alyssa Gabbay about her recent new book Gender and Succession in Medieval and Early Modern Islam: Bilateral Descent and the Legacy of Fatima (I.B. Tauris, 2020). The book shows that contrary to assumptions about Islam’s patrilineal nature, there is in fact precedent in pre-modern Islamic history of Muslims' recognition of bilateral descent, or descent from both the mother and the father – though, of course, bilateral descent was by no means universally acknowledged

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Hello and welcome to the podcast new books in Islamic Studies with the new books Network. This is your co-host today or timer station is with Alyssa gabay and gender and succession in medieval and early modern Salon bilateral descent & The Legacy at Falcon are published in 2020 with IB Torres.

The bay is an associate professor and director of undergraduate studies at the University of North Carolina Greensboro right areas of Interest include Indo Persian culture gender and Islam religious pluralism among others recent book gender and succession in medieval and early modern Islam the subject of today's conversation shows that contrary to assumption is about Islam patrilineal nature. There is exact president in Islamic history of Muslims recognition of bilateral descent or decent from both the mother and the father of course bilateral descent was by no means universally acknowledged.

Aldo not the only example of his argument Muhammad that are essential to the city because of her status in Boston ENT I decided as well as because not only have used to argue in support of bilateral descent in our conversation. We discussed the concept of descent and it's three components of women as mothers heiresses, which I have a hard time pronouncing but it is the feminine plural of the word are and successors and significance to the discussion of descent.

And as a representative of bilateral descent parallels between Mary the mother of Jesus and other tires women in Muslim history bottom explain to father as her inheritance and its impact on history and female rulers in Muslim history enjoyable and educational read for anyone interested in gender studies Islam and gender female Authority classical studies history and would make for a great resource for both undergraduate and graduate Islamic courses. I enjoyed my conversation with Alyssa greatly and I hope that you are going to Alyssa. Thank you so much for being here with me and talking about your book gender and succession in medieval and early modern descendants, and I enjoyed the book so much and I'm so excited to talk to you about it. We're just talking about how I'm kind of upset.

Really got so much out of this but and I support our conversation. Thank you so much for having me. And now you know what it's like to be a tradition on Beneva podcast to ask our guests in Houston sell this and share their intimate Journey with us what led you to the Steeles and especially to writing this book.

So I got into Islamic Studies in a in a rather roundabout way to my father was a Ronnie and he was of Baha'i and Jewish ancestry and tell you all this time around is Ronnie and relatives in a roni and culture when I was growing up. But but I didn't have a strong sense of Iranian identity and I wasn't really Chris to have one. But in my it was in my thirties that I developed a real interested in knowing more about Iranian history and culture and this was a very personal so I I wanted to know why my grandparents had gotten divorced and it wrong when my grandmother was only 20

And and so I wanted to interview my grandmother by letting in Alexandria Virginia. And so I I started to start I tried to learn person to be able to interview her and studying Persian made me fall in love with this person literature study. So I ended up getting my PhD from the Department of near Eastern languages and civilizations at the University of Chicago. But even though that was my my primary focus, I studied early and medieval Islamic history and Islamic civilization. I don't know if that's a term of use anymore. But that's what it was was there and so on and there is of a study were never really separated and I'm really grateful for that. I think studying just classical Persian literature.

As great as I would have been would have been a much richer experience to to study it alongside history. For example, I spent a lot of time reading a classical Persian text with my advisor. If not know he was a professor of classical Persian literature for many years at the University of Chicago and I wasn't a traditional grad student. I was in my 30s, but he accepted me none the less he kind of took me under and in some ways. It was really kind of an old-fashioned relationship between the other. And they're ready to be formed. He was really a traditionalist in the sense of his his great love for Persian literature and his feeling that students to get a very

Solid grounding in the classics. So a lot of our classes really consisted of you know, three or four students sitting around the table and it's office and just translating a difficult test something like Jame or roommate in Translation and difficult experience a really rewarding one but at the same time I was taking a medieval history classes with professor John Woods really good test counterpart to this or Counterpoint to the more detailed work that I was doing with Professor my yet. So we would look at me and Ian I'm here dynamic.

And it was a very kind of very rich experience. And one thing I'm grateful for is that you know, I didn't go into I didn't enter into the study of a slime or get an education that was really Arabia or Arabic Focus. Definitely the the importance of Arabia and Arabic word for emphasize but we were really coming at it from the edges and I like to I think it was very productive. So in terms of how I got into writing this book to my first book was about Amir khusro set a thirteenth-century Indian poet and I was writing about this new culture that he helped create and and to propagate through literature Indo Persian culture and mores and I'm especially looking at how he examined and

Reverse hierarchies that were very much in French in Islamic civilization. So she's barely stand collar poet version and gender was definitely part of this. I have whole chapter on his treatment of a gutter issues of looking at a particular a story from his contact to hit and this question Ginger was something that really kind of grabbed me and I decided to pursue it even more deeply in my in my next book.

So we don't start on the second book. I was researching my dissertation on I'm your host Row in India and I'm spending some time at an Audi guard University and I was looking at various manuscripts of Devon spy on your cholesterol and I came across the phone and daughters and he's saying that daughters are actually better than that. You should prefer your grandchildren from a daughter above grandchildren for from a son because the prophets grandsons were born from his daughter raped and then he gets into the Arthur chili and ideas about how a daughter contribute to the making of a child has a son only contributes water.

Blood is thicker than water. So the connection is stronger, but he's definitely identifying the children of of a daughter as part of his lineage and it's really you contrary to the stereotypical views about daughters in medieval muscles, you know, what's going on here? And so that really should have sent me out on a journey to find answers and it it led me into an exploration of bilateral descent and Muslim societies, which is what the the present book explores, but I really had I really have to set it aside for many years while I was finishing the first things like that and your resources

The focus of the box and bilateral bilateral descent in the book is on muslim-majority countries, but what does bilateral descent mean and what are alternatives to sense? I'm talking to a bilateral Society is a society that traces descent through both male and female line extremely patrilineal societies. And I don't know that anything just Extreme has ever existed but the various Provisions patrilineality. So if a if a man has a son and a daughter only be carried on through the Son and the sons. The daughter marry someone and has children's they will be accounted part of her husband's not hers. And so she's she's really considered a dead end.

For her first family's lineage, right? She's a she's a vessel or receptacle for husbands lineage and its really related in an Arabic saying that I can't cross over and over again my research but daughters are the Suns assistant men so, man, my son Sons are my sons, but my daughter sons are the sons are her husband son. So that's kind of reality societies daughters and sons are seen as belonging to post parents families of birth to their lineages. And of course the mother's side, right then I didn't come across that so it's so often that anybody is

Sections of lineage art are so significant. They have implications for inheritance for custody and enter the status of women overall.

Are there any parts of the world where bilateral descent is an arm today? And if so, what does it look like in the case of lineage and determined through say last name Choices for Children? It's a really good question. And I knew that in Spain people do take on both their fathers and their mothers last names. There are probably other examples we see I mean it you can think of the United States as a fairly bilateral Society citizenship and nationality of those are all pretty bilateral here. But if you think about it children

Women still do you know take their husbands names when they get married and most children still take their fathers names? They have their fathers knew so that's still a reality that are supposedly Great Britain there still inheritance laws that really favored Sons the succession laws for the royalty in Great Britain were only recently changed to make things more meticulous hair in between male and female children. So I think that the countries that are pretty bilateral but I don't I don't know of any that are that are completely bilateral.

You know somebody calling her, to let me know about that, but that wasn't the focus my study so that it's possible that that's out there as well or some other Latin American and South American countries also have this idea of the others and the father's last name being packed on children at some point. You're going to have to choose somebody's when someone turns last name and that ends up being their father's last name to I I meant to ask her also add if you could tell us about this book the research and writing process your methodology some of your primary finding what you made interventions or just anything about the books that you would like our readers to know before we get into that meat.

Cases of five of the sense in medieval and early modern Islamic societies. And at first I was I was examining this issue with the context of classical Persian literature in order to answer my questions and that led me into a much more interdisciplinary approach which is mostly by gender studies to answer the question. How was the sent by medieval and early modern Muslims? Who does your children belong? What's the nature of the relationship different family members to each other and it's a question was so many facets biological question. So legal question. It's an economic question. So to answer. I cast of dairy while earlier so I look at

Atlas collections for on commentary poetry storical Chronicles endowment Deeds by rack of the dictionaries. I'm really trying to say in a broad sense how people can see about this idea and focusing in on examples of bilateral Islam is a patrilineal religion and that all Islamic societies are high selenium, but that really doesn't really doesn't hold up evidence. Do I need finding or contribution? Was that even though pre-modern Islamic societies were very distinct bilateral Tendencies and this comes out over a very wide geographical and chronological rage, right? It's not confined to Sunni or Shiite.

Societies it's not confined to a certain time. Or region and it manifests and how people talk about children.

No, you don't have in the past done. Very specific studies of looking at different aspects of bilateralism. So inheritance say in Gene Juarez Dynasty with the dynasty or the picture of witches trying to put together these pieces of the puzzle to see what this tells us. So that's one big area of my intervention for or contribution.

The second area is in how the book looks at Fatima the daughter her profit. So I mentioned earlier that I'm your host row uses her for saying that daughters Are Better Than Just Dance on switch with his daughter. I show how she was was depicted in that late in Hadith literature and elsewhere. And also what its impact was for both sunnis and and she's been there many many studies about them and their studies of how she appears in she had teeth literature and smoothies have looked at how she was regarded.

As someone who transmitted the prophetic bloodline and this was coupled with an exalted status for her, but this is not as if it's often not highlighted is not examine thoroughly. It's just kind of mentioned here and there but to me, so Central to understanding of Fatima and her status that I I play it up much more. I just one more thing. He also frequently in contemporary scholarship really seen as a as a feminist icon. But usually she's been regarded as as well or serbians to Oxmoor as a as a hindrance to women than someone who can actually be helpful to them. So she's someone that they're kind of

Measured against and falling short of and she's not really seeing too much as an agent or as an activist suppose it image of spots, as an agenda women who is a feminist icon of Route anyone is one that I tried to excavate one more thing looking at Fatima from a feminist perspective through the lens of a file idolism in a way that she hasn't looked at thoroughly before bilateral defense right? There is Eric eros's Aaron's address also how each contributes to potential consequences for the status of women.

So I do want to say I have separated in the book, but they're overlapping and one really kind of crows out of the other. So you're even though there separately they really too kind of stuff that goes on there. So it's always this first notion that of motherhood is Easter the most basic concept of bilateral descent and it really is the kind of radical notion that children belong to both our mothers and their fathers and lineages and mothers and fathers contribute significantly to the making of a child and this may seem really obvious to us today, but it was by no means completely accepted and whether we're talking about Muslim or non-muslim societies,

Really greasy fingers as us following them argued that women didn't contribute very much to the making of a child. You have the notion that contribute House of material the sort of raw material the blood which the nail scene in which is the carrier of the Soul escapes into a new individual. So if all goes well, the father is imprinting the child with his identity the month the woman is just getting raw material provided a vessel for the fetus. She's not contributing us. So she's not imprinting the child with her identity and we certainly see this in this saying that I said, I've already quoted our sons are the sons of our sons, but the sons of our daughters are the Suns assistant right daughters, the daughter didn't contribute something to that child or at least that contributions not recognized and you see it 2 I mean and you know, there's lots of ideas or around there today. That's it belongs to the father.

Sparks at pieces body right? No mention detrimental to the status of women and and reinforces the idea of women as inferior as being unable to create as providing matter rather than soul and also a disappearing into the identity of their husbands not having an identity of their own and again just being kind of a vessel and the skin off when hit a woman's ability to have access to our children in cases of death or divorce. So not across-the-board, you know customers often Franta to women but if children are seen as intrinsically belonging to their fathers and then off and went out and custody battles, right if there's a divorce and a woman

Subscribe speakers believe that both men and women contributed to the creation of a fetus man a quote to support it.

And in some cases the consequences of this of this recognition of bilateral descent are very are very tangible. So today recognition of women more custody rights over children or allows them to transmit their citizenship for their nationality to their children in pre-modern time. The consequence Nathan left handle on who is named for his mother for example of which witch did happen and which is an indication of bilateral descent woman is actually going to materially that if it but but I think that needing women and definitely honors them and makes them visible rather than erasing them and it's and it's kind of store is this reproductive or creative power to them that they might that they might otherwise be lacking.

Mothers of of motherhood the idea that you notice that mothers are actually related in important ways to to their children another important recognized or ignored is through through inheritance. So what a woman and she really inherit from her family birth is a real indication of the degree to which they're seen as belonging to her family the family at first so very strict patrilineal societies with cut women out of inheritance being entirely, right and I'm talking in general terms. Any particular society women would not have a daughter basically ceases to exist after she marries or she's or she's a piece of property.

You be inherited rather than someone who can inherit and naturally her children again are not part of our family so they wouldn't inherit from so instead of dairy dairy Castle nail society as you often have a very big emphasis on asthmatic it snow today in Arabic.

According to traditional narrative like a radius was very athletic. And when Islam came along it's introduced inheritance laws that put put much less emphasis on patrilineality patrilineal before the date to what degree this was. This was followed to what degree were Believers trying to shift things back to more patrilineal see an end one area where we see people trying to ship things back to patrilineality is through the creation of what or endowments

The setting of spies a piece of property in perpetuity usually and an income from it can be used to benefit either a shrine or Moss complex or a family or individual frequently in the beginning of inheritance has so if a daughter is to receive a certain amount of inheritance according to the Quran and people did not want to dissolve or divide up a piece of property and give her some of it because that would mean setting it apart from the lineage. They would take the step of creating on endowment inalienable in perpetuity. So it couldn't be touched it wasn't subject to the regular inheritance laws. So while the person who own the property was still alive they would do this.

I can't just seems to be why people started to create walks rather early on but what's interesting about I explore my book is is that later on walks are used to the opposite reason to actually benefit women because women especially noogle women in places like Central Asia and Iran would create them and they would need their descendants with male and female as beneficiaries are they could receive something income from the walk and and all of this really help to endow women with things that they might otherwise lack of Economic Security Authority Prestige is linking her with her family of birth. So if a woman has access to money and property of her own that is somehow the ride from her family at first it doesn't it doesn't guarantee autonomy and a happy life, but you know,

another benefit recognition of bilateral descent

and disturb manifestation a bilateral descent that I look at it is is succession and probably the most important implication of the recognition of bilateral descent. So if a woman is not just a vessel for her Offspring and her husband's identity if she herself has an identity something inherited from her birth family and something that she can pass along to her children, then it follows that she can she can Manifest this identity potential in the public sphere as well. And you know, it could be Spiritual Authority or scholarly ability or or ruling capacity. And this is not all that common and either Islamic or non-islamic pre-modern societies are women as we know it unfit for operating.

Here, you know dirty irrational and ruled by their emotions. So there's a lot of treatises and track talking about these things. So there's a reluctance to acting as rulers or in other capacities and I do look at these exceptions. And this is what I found to be openly agentic for bilateral descent looking for the book that I can identify agency with them and you know agency agency that identified in the other forms of bilateral descent, but it's definitely more of a veil to wear with agency, but this is succession is the most kind of openly

Genetic form of bilateral descent it's a woman having the ability to govern herself and make decisions for herself. But the Govern to govern others and this specific are going to buy the Empire or contemporary Pakistan and the consequences are huge properties agents. She's able to control her own destiny as well as potentially the Destinies of others.

So those are the three main ways that I look at at expressions of bilateral descent in the book answer the second ago, but I won't ask it anyway in case some of our listeners are not too familiar with the legacy of mine and she's obviously a very essential and how is she relevant?

Yeah, it's it's a it's a good question. She is she's so Central to this issue of bilateral descent in Islam because she's she's a very early and then perhaps the most important example of it and destroy the example that other people refer to quite a bit. So so here's a bit of the narrative about this, you know, so ask me no deposit had no surviving sons. And this led him in the eyes of his enemies to be seen as someone whose it was cut off because he had no son but traditionally and he's not seen as cut off. His lineage is seen as continuing through his grandson's Hassan and Hussein was Fatima as a continent and this appears

We text but it's it's necessarily emphasized and she text and that's because of course she's have a stake in seeing as part of their maternal blood line. So if these are saying that infallibility and Gnostic knowledge and religious authority to Hassan and Hussein from their maternal grandfather that they deserve to succeed him and their father as leader of the Muslim Community, then they have to belong to his lineage so particularly and she text with the aspects of bilateral descent coming out with regard to stop, and her son. So, you know we had so obviously there's the notion that coming out that possumus Sons belong to her lineage and to that of her father and this comes out and had these in for on commentary that actually

All Hassan and Hussein the prophets Sons or Intex that talk about the deposits Charisma and it's not acknowledging transmitted in the lights from him to spot some of hers were Sons. It comes out in commentary that compares possum it to Mary the mother of Jesus as depicted in the four on and talks about her ability to transmit her lineage to her son just as Mary transmitted her lineage to her son's many of the same text to talk about deserve to inherit from her father again, a very clear sign of bilateral descent and they also talked about her in many ways as a successor to her father.

Not a lot of this was probably done for political reasons. As I mentioned. She's were really invested in ensuring that Hassan and Hussein and their descendants were seen as the rightful inheritors of the caliph it and to do that. They had to make sure that bilateral descent was seen as legitimate and was everybody was that they intended maybe they didn't send it. So this kind of consequence that occurred so maybe all those who suffer political reasons, but maybe not but the end result was that ended up being very much exalted. You have a female occupying extremely secure place.

lineage and you have bilateral descent becoming kind of ocean again something that people refer to later on and and that affects how others view daughters in both Sunni and she societies that she was affected by these news on Fox, and it's so many of the examples of a bilateral descent examples of inheritance are examples of succession that I looked at faasamoa was an inspiration

the mother of Jesus also figured prominently throughout the book in specially in the ways that particular women are remembered in history in here with the parallels that are drawn between Fatima and Maryam, but then there also parallels between Miami and say awkward the Great's mother that was completely merry fellows are attributed to someone like father and mother has been paralyzed, and what specific ways they are imagines like my stomach the cottage industry of comparisons of Ottoman and Maddie on

Because she's she's quite frequently compared to Mary and in some ways these comparisons are very natural. So has the most prominent figure and and the only names female figure in the form on as we know and she's obviously regarded as extremely holy so it's natural that people who are trying to exalt other female figures would compare them to her. Right? So and you know, of course, I'm I'm looking at this from sort of The Outsiders perspective, you know that perspective. I mean the comparisons are are completely.

Benefit legitimize Jesus is referred to in the car on a zit and Maddie on right. He's identified with his mother's Lydia's she thought to have descended from Abraham through his mother. So why can't you have the same thing with Hassan and Hussein and their mother has very specific arguments. So this is this is a really useful means of are the comparisons to and in some cases trying to claim an even higher station for fossil more than for Mary. So if Mary was the queen of all of her time,

Then father was the queen of the women of her world and Mary's world and queen of women from the beginning to the end. You know, I don't know if Christians and yes many similar are a trip to Fatima as the ones attributed to Tamara especially around the issues of of Chastity and Purity. So like Mary Fatima was considered a virgin, although your virginity was defined as never have any menstruated rather than someone who never had intercourse, so she was never just filed by Blood and she supposedly gave birth from her thought of Jesus.

Are there other other of rakdos purse associated with other women who are compared to to marry? So there is a distant ancestor of the emperor Akbar and his name was and so and she is often compared to marry as is I found our actual mother who was named Sue comparing these women to to marry with the with salting them of emphasizing their purity and Chastity and their miraculous capacity which which way to go and

Cassidy is considered throughout the book. But but for many of these women their Chastity is the reason that they're choosing to play these tremendous role, right and enter Cassidy also bequeathed the content tremendous power soak bottom is Chasity and supposed to have secured Redemption for her children and possibly four for their followers as well.

And what are the person who is compared to Mary's Patty fun fun of the 16th century Savage princess who who rained recently in this case? The comparison was done to try to make a female ruler who is in the public sphere that maybe she would be chased by comparing her to Marianne by playing up the Chastity and the Purity Baptist Association with Mary gave her the way to get beyond that and potentially to make her more acceptable as a ruler.

Looks like my father which I think is just one of the saddest moments in Islamic history. And in my opinion on the way. I think this is subjective and objective Fact one of the best examples of elements that is going downhill immediately after Muhammad's death. And why is it so important? What is the dispute? And yeah, it's a it's an incredibly complicated issue and and I agree it is it is very sad. Yeah, so easily both both Sunni and she had teeth collectors and historians liked habari tell us about a piece of property that had belonged to an ancient Oasis town about two or three days journey from Medina and its inhabitants produce things like dates and handicrafts that were that were bad.

Arguments about it and its Revenue belong and claimed it and she said that the prophet had gifted it to her before he died according to other accounts. She said that she's rightfully inherited it as his daughter according to Chronic inheritance laws a paternal Uncle a tossed also claimed it. But abubakar at the time said that it belonged to the caliph it would be given to charity and he quoted the prophet saying that the children of prophets do not inherit that by the way is disputed by herself. But this cost a lot of conflict between Fatima and Abu Bakr so much for herself. Reportedly. He's a very big

In which she had been given to her according to Chronic inheritance laws, and she also really strongly criticized the Muslim Community for the direction that it was going in and for turning its back on the book of God, and she was reportedly so angry and Abu Bakr about this that she did not speak to them until she died, you know, which wasn't long after the prophet that she actually return for that to her and they and they have heard that it continued to be a real bone of contention on so it changed hands a number of times over the centuries continue to be argued over between the Abbasid descendants of my boss write the prophets paternal uncle and and olives or the Shiites right? So there's this continued

Between the ages of Millennials and a bilateral scheme of the Sun and and it becomes a really a very disagreeable symbol that itself of Gnostic knowledge of religious authority to Fatima is is implicit Lee cleaning these things for a lie for her sons and their descendants. That's what I think. She's become so interested in the fate of product and here is like a cynical view once again, which I think that they weren't so interested in women's rights and they were concerned about showing that Hassan and Hussein and their descendants have the right to temporal and spiritual leadership and Optima V2 inherits for that and to pass it on become symbolic of that but in a way, that's that's that's very interesting.

Contemporary feminism it become representative of a woman's right to inherit and of her children's right to inherit from the paternal line right from her family for this is what was being denied to Fatima and the way that medieval she inherited took shape really shows this on. So she lost tend to be much more favorable two daughters and to their offspring is right and left so too, right so under certain circumstances a daughter would be much more under Sheila then understood meaning example, if if a deceased person leaves a paternal grandfather a wife and a daughter understood the daughter would inherit substantially less than under under Sheila and paternal grandfather is favored in the scheme.

A daughter son under certain circumstances would inherit much more under she was so if a if it's East leaves a paternal uncle and uterine brother. That's a brother from the same mother and a daughter son. So potentially the daughter son would get nothing under Sweeney law but everything under she so this is really cleaning them as the daughter son is intrinsic parts of of that first family.

And the truth and the scholars who talked about these inheritance from referred back to the case of Fatima and said that so I think that we could say that the example of the way that for that was taken away from her people trying to take the back way from her really help to shake those laws.

I know I was that invested in her and I was angry the whole time that I was reading the book but I learned so much for the idea that she had that that was his brand new information for me. What is going on here and how everyone is this notion is this is just another way in which she is she in the life of a successor or a piece and it's often used to refer to the core on but in Chisholm, is also supposed to have received a most of this appears in in Hadith collection, right?

Gabriel the angel Gabriel supposed to have visited her after father's death to comfort her and to have told her about her father and its place as future events and what would happen to her children and at least was supposed to written all this down now, there's there's some discrepancy over what is in the Moose off of assault, We don't have it. But according to Tucson Traditions, it has legal rulings in it according to others it. It doesn't but it does have marked similarities to the core on scribed Inspire text Gabriel and to have been infused with ordinary wisdom and Powers. So according to one Heidi only the possessor of the most pop has the authoritative divinely-inspired knowledge

The alarm for 6. Except that the book contains what makes people need us and makes us in need of no one and it's been passed down from Ottumwa to your mom. So she is the source of it. I mean ultimately God is the source of it, but she's the one that like to hear right? It's a text that their similarities to the sheet and receiving it is similar to a profit. So this is why I believe that it puts you in the category of the right. I need cheese colors are very careful to say that she's not she's not in her mom, but it's certainly put her in the category of a successor. And I think it's terrible no cheese on maybe not too well known outside if she is on fire.

Really fascinating who are some such women in pre-modern Islamic history. And how is it a little ship received?

So that it's it's not common. It was not it was not uncommon for medieval daughters to succeed their fathers to leadership positions, but it does happen and it does happen and I looked at in the book at a few different cases of it and I think it's some commonalities that I can find among the different examples in which it occurs dynastic societies. Where is leadership is associated with a particular family which possesses a particular Charisma that women are frequently seen as enjoying that. Charisma 2 and under certain circumstances as maybe when there's not a fit nail relative.

Remington can be seen as able to rule and they can they can manifest these qualities that are not typically associated with when it seems like good sense of reason and judgment and Military expertise always think that women aren't supposed to have there's not a there might be a lot of constraints but it does WC it with the Department Empire for example with a princess on sits on Luke to her father that she was out as he's really thought very highly of her. He asked her opinion on matters of state. So if you see a lot of these people being educated bring brought into the court thing to salted after she died and her brother sits and looks rather than Al hakan also consulted with her after he disappeared under mysterious circumstances.

Briefly during an Interventional. And then after that when her nephew was nominally she was really wishing it also with the safavid Empire with Terry van hanh on the princess that I thought I mentioned earlier. She was an extremely bright woman again. This is a case where her father saw Patmos regarded her very highly and cultivated her and and consulted her decisions as with Luke treadmill.

Now we supposed to tell McEntire Santana. There's lots of intrigue there's kind of messy stuff that occurs between them and their brothers and their followers and they get they get drawn into or or maybe create a lot of intrigue Tarrytown Honda was actually executed at the order of one of her brothers wives when she was 29 so they didn't always have a happy ending that happen to anyone right and then and women so so this may be a par for the course on the point is if they were able to be really need your players on the political stage as a result of these dynastic connections and this kind of transmission of charisma.

One more example is is the Delhi sultanate in India a woman in Asia in the 13th century and she's a really interesting. She was apparently appointed by her father to her father's coupons. It's with me. I'm supposed to be recognized her very strong capacity for ruling and he's designated her as his successor over his sons and over the objections of his advisers and she did will again for almost four years and it's really interesting because she has to be secluded as a woman but it's difficult. You can't ride Out Among the people, you know, you can't do the things you need to do as as as a ruler. So in order to deal with these

She decided not to be a woman and she began to the dress as a man. So she suddenly became a man as ruler. She went out with elephants on the people. She led armies and this is a really striking idea for us. Now. I think you're basically at this juncture. Now when the issue of gender ambiguity is so much a part of life. But what it shows to me is that the boundaries between the genders were not as impermeable and sixth as we may think that you know, so women could essentially become a Secret transgender gender and although she was very hotly criticized for it later at the time. It doesn't seem to have caused much of a tall is that a lot of historians who are contemporary with these rulers and are looking at their rules.

HDL and and also praising them so, you know, it seems as though it wasn't the most outlandish thing in the world to have a woman a woman ruling especially when you have the synaptic connections and cultivated by their fathers.

That was really fascinating to basically if I can if I can't if I can't be respected as a leader because I am then I'll just not there anything else that you would like to share with our listeners about your research or this book?

I do want to know I just want to know what about about faasamoa that you don't spook. I feel kind of briefly about her her foot spa in a multiplicity of ways, but she's often depicted as I think the traditional way of looking at her as is as of this kind of very shy quiet unassuming individual who prefer to fade into the background song hide away from public view going to have leadership. And as far as she's going to be a successor it was going to be in the next World this world.

Because she is extremely critical of taking right as I mentioned already pointing people in in the right direction. She's portraying herself as the daughter of a Warner which is investing herself with authority receive right both in in pre-modern and modern times has she had these collectors actually quote bottom of foot. But in the same way that they hear she's not a transmitter of Hadith. She's so meaningful and there are some contemporary she Scholars who look at what she did and stood for and they say that she has infallibility like the imams do that. She was the first to point out the corruption of the ruling party.

A model for Behavior just as profit in the amounts were.

It's really kind of signal isn't pointing in the direction of her of her as a success or even though you know, I don't agree with you say that she was actually but I think that these indications that she said she spent in some way she was seen as a successor and as you know as one who could act in the public sphere and it and its temporal way rather than just having Spiritual Authority know her sermon. Definitely I mean and I think there's a dispute about how much of the sermon actually is hers and how much of it, you know people added on later to expect at least acknowledge that she gave some kind of a speech at the mosque and she's criticizing a bucket of end and it's the very end stration.

Is it going to be her outspokenness her desire for justice, but that's not necessarily how she's often depicted and you I really enjoyed the section also in the book where you talk about you point out that she's not all she's not necessarily often depicted as a figure of authority. There are moments were Scholars do and I think you for saying that I did I definitely didn't mean to ask Will you like to hear what our authors are currently working on. Are you working on a new project? Assuming you are because we're in the middle of the day. I have been able to work on a few things here there, you know, I I recently finished a couple of articles that have been on the back burner for a long time. It was really good to work on.

We're short. The one of them is actually an offshoot from this book that didn't make it into the book. It's an examination of his identification as identification at 7:10. Right but she was sometimes called why I said I have a free particle which looked at that another project is an article about the story of the prince in the Sean on it and how he represents a sort of super National ethos.

I said those are two things. I just kind of finished up but the big the next Big Book Project a big project ahead of me is a return to my roots. So who started all of this poetry and he has to to all of them and one of these purposes to the very long and detailed and contains a lot of Sparkle and literary information literary criticism critical edition of it and and other processes for 40 classical Library of India, and I'm translating them as well. And this is really exciting for me. I've kind of gotten away from working intensively with is Persian text, and I've missed it all so exciting because I'm your host row LED such a colorful life and you know,

Very cool to get the follow him along on his on his adventures and trying to replicate that in Translation is just some is bastante. So the big task ahead of me, and I will be looking forward to it and I have no doubt that our readers are viewers will also enjoy it very much. Thank you.

So that was my conversation with Alyssa and her wonderful book gender and succession in medieval and early modern Islam bilateral descent and the Legacy. Thank you for listening and I will see you again soon.
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