The What Bitcoin Did Podcast - The Bitcoin Cypherpunk Box with Matt Hill & Aaron Greenspan

“I don’t think you can do the future that we envision, without Bitcoin.”— Matt HillLocation: ZoomDate: Monday 27th July Company: Start9 Labs Role: CEO/Co-Founder & Co-Founder/Head of EngineeringThe birth of the internet caused one of the most significant cultural shifts in human history. Global communication and information sharing has allowed for considerable advancements in society, and it is integral to the world we live in today. However, it is not all positive; the internet sucks up vas

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00:00:00
I don't think that you can do the future that we envision without Bitcoin.

00:00:06
Hello, Dan from the United Kingdom. How are you were welcome to the big 20 podcast, which is brought to you by the Mighty Kraken best place to buy sell and trade Bitcoin. I'm your Host Pizza McCormack. And today. I'm going to interview with Matt Hill and Aaron Greenspan from 9, but we're going to be discussing premacy butthole that are to have a message from my show sponsors and. Today we can talk about blockfi the future of Bitcoin and financial services. If we don't find you can open up Pinterest account and you can earn money on your Bitcoin. I've been a customer to come in after a year now like maiden 81 Bitcoin in interest. So yeah, I love the service. I love it at the end of each month see my balance and see my pick up for me also with Bronx want you can use your Bitcoin as collateral and you can take out a USDA loan and you can also fun to block my account directly from your Bitcoin wallet with the pot farm mobile app. You can now fleet manager account on the go and access for the services and makeup so much more stuff coming this year even trust in checking out blockfi. I recommend you do your research and then head over.

00:01:06
If I don't come which is b l o c kfi.com will so we have Kraken the Mighty Kraken the best place to buy ink selling and trading Bitcoin and why they the best or firstly they have world-class security which makes them the most trusted crypto currency exchange on the market and with that 24/7 365 customer support. They are going to help me with any issues you have whoever you want and wherever you are. They also have the most comprehensive Suite of tools available to buy Bitcoin. So if you lose a Bitcoin be head over to crack and don't call me could not be easier to sign up and stop buying Bitcoin with that beautiful mobile first app. You can help by pick one on the go with margin trading Futures and the OTC desk Kraken has every single trading option covered for you. That is no better place to trade Bitcoin find out more kraken.com or download the app is available for the iPhone and Android just says the Kraken Pro V2 Kraken.

00:02:06
Aaron. Knowing on over the last few years the importance of retaining your personal days and privacy online is becoming more and more obvious, especially highlighted by Vince. Like what happened with Facebook and Cambridge analytica Scandal protecting you Peyton and keeping private online isn't that easy and it can make the experience was I mean, I try turning off all of my location data on my phone trying to hide stuff from Google and you know, it just made Express using your phone was such a tricky thing is a tricky thing known which states you should be given out when she shouldn't be and this is being addressed by starting line that plug and play and the sea is a Bitcoin node with an inbuilt private messaging app and password manager. They sent me one out of go to hear. I'm going to be set up on the weekend having to play with that seeing how it was but before that I did want to get the guys on the show talk about it and I'll prove it to yourself. So in this episode we get into this weekend in 2y online privacy is important why is important to retain your data? So I hope you enjoy this one. But this team is trying to do if you get any feedback on the show, you know, you hate me

00:03:06
Email addresses. Hello bought Bitcoin jet.com also out in Defiance. The trailer has dropped for my new show, which is coming soon, which is cool 1233 days it tells it's incredible story of this heavy metal band The Ghost Inside the trailer shop in defiance can check it out outside of that. Love you all. Have a great weekend, and I will see you soon.

00:03:24
Matt Aaron, how you guys doing?

00:03:27
Doing great. Thanks for having the song Peter doing doing very good. Thanks so much to check out these guys. I want you outside. I really like your website.

00:03:43
Call just left it kind of what you're doing. But yes, I have a confession I boil knowed it arrived and I clean up my office and put it away with all my Bitcoin stuff. And I never got around to open up with people say will typical you pee with regards to a note but it's actually going to get it set up. So the hats off to this session or I'll do that. Let you guys know about it. You'll you'll be pleasantly surprised when you get to it only takes a minute to get on that privacy is very very important right now is a Hot Topic and Bitcoins a Hot Topic and we going to world this guy and absolutely crazy. It feels like it's on C shift in the way people are thinking but no, we're not going to go pick one bobblehead, but everything that's going on in the world right now.

00:04:43
Positions as a business that can really provide people with the type of kind of products that they wants it to live a life with a with a high level of privacy. How do you feel about that?

00:04:56
Yeah, I mean that is our overarching goal as a company is to afford non-technical individuals the ability to exist on the internet weather that is the traditional internet are you know sooner that poor side of things in total privacy without trusting anyone because that is really the Crux of the issue is that to obtain privacy today in a non-technical user-friendly way you have to entrust your your private data and Communications channels to a central 3rd party. There are very few avenues for a temp for a cheating real self privacy and it requires a lot of technical expertise to do.

00:05:37
You sent me a notice before and one of the things you put in there as I could prove a c is a necessary prerequisite for an individual individual liberty and a free Society. Tuna told me to we through this so.

00:05:57
Privacy affords a few benefits that invariably lead to a free Society or lack thereof the surviving it's so the first one is that you need sort of insurance policy against political uncertainty, you know, we've seen throughout history that just because something was permissible yesterday or is permissible today. To say and do does not mean that it will be permissible tomorrow. And so you may want to have conversations in private today that are perfectly fine. But that you think could become dangerous in the Futures under a regime change Princeton. So privacy, you know allows you to exist without worrying about who's going to come into office next and usually said against you another benefit is that it protects you against extortion and manipulation by people who know a lot about you. It's sort of like tipping your cards in the Game of Poker your opponent knows your cards.

00:06:57
You know how to play you. So if everything I say and do and everywhere I go is tracked and monitored the analytics and opportunities for manipulation against me increase likewise one that's less talked about but is also very important is that privacy affords a environment for experimentation tinkering so humans and you can see the season with children. I know what I was a kid. I dyed my privacy very much that wasn't something I was taught me. It wasn't an ideological consideration. It was a very biological impulse. I wanted to go off on my own and enjoy my private time and day and Gina perform experiments on building and feel free to make mistakes where I wasn't going to be judged by any onlooker and when you have a surveillance state that feeling of constantly being washed, actually, I think it swells his creativity and then headed to the first point, you know, this this idea that regime change.

00:07:57
Is very often that I was taught in schools when I was young then I think it's very widely misunderstood, which is the very common phrase of absolute power corrupts. Absolutely. And I think the best race is most commonly held to believe that if you grant an individual absolute power that if an individual Rises to power that they will invariably corrupt that this individual will become you know, all-powerful dictator crops person and I don't believe that for a second I think Integrity is a real thing and that individuals can rise in power and maintain their principles and integrity just fine and that we have plenty of examples of this throughout history. What doesn't maintain its Integrity what that phrase really applies to is transgenerational political systems or organizations of any kind because what Krups is the changeover, right sofa system has enormous amounts of power even the people the people in charge of that.

00:08:57
Today may be totally fine and benevolent and remain that way but their successors may not be so over time systems with absolute power will corrupt absolutely even if it takes a few hundred thousand years. And so that is what privacy affords is that you can almost predict with certainty that A system that is growing in Tyler will also grow in corruption. And so you need to be very careful about what you do today so that it will be used against you tomorrow that reminds me of something Andrea said that I was watching one of these presentations in preparation play Interview with Brian Armstrong last week and he said you lose your privacy today and you will punish later one of the problems with privacy is that you lose your pussy everyday, but you don't pay the price for that until perhaps later. Are you calling immediately identify the moment ritual of Supremacy Coastal something that is an inconvenience to a deadly risk?

00:09:54
Yeah, and there are I mean there are just multitude of examples throughout history where exactly that happens new regime comes into Power calls all of the old supporters or the supporters of the previous regime and all of that stuff is recorded in and detailed and records that are being kept for a long time like those people down and I met some people send in the Uso Australia Erin places. I think it's going to be an issue for them. So we being naive.

00:10:28
Yeah, well if I know being issued for you, but what about your children and grandchildren and you know political systems take time to evolve and corrupt?

00:10:40
So, you know why we should be planning for the future. I think can you give me some examples why this is happened in history.

00:10:49
Hellboy concrete examples that comes to mind very quickly the Iranian Revolution in the 80s is a great example where you have a fairly Democratic and Aaron more and more towards the Democratic. I guess there was a monarchy been at the time but I'm a very sort of liberal and Progressive kind of system which guess for taking over at least the revolution is hijacked by Islamic and all of those previous for an academic leading that Rebelution are prisons and it's exactly the kind of thing that we're we're afraid of and even this interview being recorded United States.

00:11:44
What you're saying is that this could affect private Community Service as well.

00:11:49
No, that's a good point. We have chosen to keep it public in this case. It's more like yeah, just the fact that it's permanent could be used to implicate us. But yeah, I mean if we were having a miscommunication in private and perhaps we were private chat, but we're developing these Technologies which two of those conversations were made public under a regime that wanted to establish the surveillance state of some kind of course, I would be extremely implicating. So so yeah, I mean having private channels in order to discuss this kind of thing is exactly what gives political dissidents and in some cases political distance Fighting For Freedom against teams that are trying to take that away.

00:12:38
Yeah, I mean it makes the lack of privacy make that really problematic. So Peter also when it comes to financial privacy to write like I mean this is this is what Bitcoin in and you know other privacy Network layer two technologies are designed to protect is that money is communication as well. And yeah, it's a really interesting time for this to happen. Sometimes you got to be working on this because we have this explosive acceleration in technology and we've been through the experience of Snowdon and understanding that everything is being tracked and monitored by the NSA. But we're at a time where we've got this massive growth in AI data storage in the cloud on everywhere, but it was recalled to technology. It's almost kind of like we can come back from this so

00:13:32
But it's not it's almost like nobody's really thought through the implications for the individuals. I think apple as a major tech company is it is thinking about this but where the cross section and at the same time the world is going to absolutely fucking bad at the belly button. We've got a Massey Ferguson surveillance technology in the UK where I live in terrible libel laws. So just feel like starting lineup a kind of position just to the right time for the things that I think people are going to start demanding outside of like your typical kind of tech nuts.

00:14:07
So, you know, we have been surprised by some of the feedback and reactions. We've gotten from various demographics that we speak with about our product and technology in that. One of the more responsive groups is actually the baby boom generation, which is traditionally not recognized has the most technical or you know, I'm bored with the most radical new technologies and you know, the the statement of Google is reading your emails seems to resonate very very deeply with that generation. I think in part because they can remember time in history not to in the not-too-distant past where privacy was sort of the default that cash was was prevalent and phone calls were made and wiretaps were required a warrant and suddenly everything that you do is public by default. No warrants are needed for anything anymore, you know and practiced and and there's any idea that you know,

00:15:07
Which of the way things used to be is is a powerful powerful concept. So, you know, we have not found our primary support to be just amongst the you know, Hardline Bitcoin privacy Advocates, but you know, this is a very human issue. This is a very sensitive human issue that people feel very passionately about even if they don't understand the implementation how were accomplishing it because at the end of the day that the product that we are selling even though the technology underneath it may be on the edge and it is the product itself is actually very friendly and familiar. You know, Gary Weiland is one of our biggest supporters. He was one of the first people to buy an embassy and has just ranted and raved about how he was able to set it up and have a full Bitcoin node running over tour as well as a private messaging app as well as a selfless the password manager in a matter of seconds with absolutely no technical knowledge recipes of how it was working at all and with no compromise nose.

00:16:07
Feist in the sovereignty aspect of the setup process listen to this place and I did not pop see a Bitcoin are they have Facebook they use every Google service. They have all that location tracking set up on that phone. You say the kind of person who's I'm knowingly put himself in a position with everything they do is being tracked to record it and perhaps when you explain this in the side effects of my life. Yeah, so we're not actually out to convert everyone right now. The world isn't doing our job for us. There is a growing number of people who are being invasion of privacy and censorship by the way as a corollary to everything that were doing as a as a problem and who are passionate about finding and implementing that

00:17:07
Lucien boast for themselves and for their loved ones and that market is is plenty to sustain us and it is growing rapidly by the day. Now the people who are not aware or who don't care we think are one of her gradually Again by the world doing our job for us and through education. So we are you know and blending educational track so that people can become aware of what the problem is in case you don't know, you know deep dives into how are technology help solve the problem, you know will be available for everyone and Eren actually is one of the leaders on the team in terms of Education in his ability to explain this to non-technical users. I was just going to say you may seem like there's a way back from the start of proliferation of data and surveillance that sort of seems to be growing especially in the western world, and I think you know some of what matters

00:18:07
That we disagree fundamentally for at start not as the internet has become of the way people interact in their day-to-day Life as a from dating two jobs and everything else. I mean, there's been no alternative for a long time to put in all of that data out there. It was for his, you know, the cost that we were willing to pay in order to have all of the convenience in the connectivity that we have today. But you know start 9, what we're attempting to do is offer that same exact convenience the same apps the same functionality, but sure and certain architect in a completely novel way which removes that trailer off Suddenly It's your data. It is possessed literally on this, you know 3 inch box or whatever. It doesn't believe that box and it is your your data is your private property in a very literal and physical sense and we think yeah, I mean gradually over time as the apps.

00:19:07
I'm better and there are more of them. I just see no reason why I even someone who doesn't really care about privacy given the choice between having your emails read by Google or not supposing there's feature parity. It's just you know, I still like it's a no-brainer. So we think it's been our software gets better. We'll just it'll just gradually sort of spread cuz it's it's a no-brainer weed world of the moment. I'm starting to find that will most the things I expected from countries all happening in the west. I mean, I'm kind of worried about the slippery slope the way ahead and down in the UK that's happening in the US and the Reese's growing kind of desire for sovereign individual does the Ice Ice Age come out Bitcoin cuz it's almost like the money started this for a for a lot of people. I don't want Bitcoin to be the prerequisite cuz I think a lot of people are stupid.

00:20:07
I still think has a reputation problem you guys talk about privacy in the face like this concrete plan for achieving untrusted uncompromising and Unstoppable privacy you started in the home. So if you would like to talk about this lab, I'll a building up. What are the things that people can I see stop start doing now outside of even the money.

00:20:30
Yeah, so glad you brought up that coin. Obviously that is an important thing to us and too many Bitcoin showed how it was. It was a novel. He knows a novel way to to assemble existing Technologies where you know, the

00:20:50
The whole is greater than the sum of the parts that Quinn is a new thing. It is a new technology and it showed us how you can achieve decentralized system how you can build money in a decentralized way and it is so this day the the beating heart and and the Battle Cry If you will of this whole movement and it is Central to it. I personally consider it somewhat indispensable. I don't think that you can do the future that we envision without Bitcoin, but it is not the whole story Bitcoin itself is vulnerable on top of centralized infrastructure to push for everyone to run a note for instance means nothing if all those nodes are being run on AWS and digitalocean. I am and even nobody's running those nuts. So there's like three nodes and the running on clouds. It's just you could skip it.

00:21:46
There are very few people who run full archival attarian nuts like clients are abundant. But when we were told me Erin Teagan Aiden, we're all at Salt prior to leaving Salt and starting up start 9 and we had to run a full archival ethereum node, so we know very intimately I how difficult that is to do and how few people are doing it because we were in touch with members of the aetherium community as we were setting this up for salt to you know, get questions answered and get you know, sort of collaboration and it is just very rare. It was really dealt with the pink hair was all of the time not just that no, the implementations themselves. So parody is what we ended up using because it was the first one guess. Yeah, I guess you just

00:22:46
I doubt kept breaking during the sink like his dad couldn't sing a note and this is, not just there are just issues with the setup and maintenance of the gas nodes and we switch the party and that works really well and then I would break sometimes and so we had backup stuff we're running where you know is very expensive in terms of computer disk space and and we just had to implement redundancies to make sure you know, we didn't go down in that was part of why we reached out to the aetherium community was like Hey, if we ever go down because he's goes down and we plug into your note remotely as a as an emergency backup and that's how we found out that there were so few people running over there like all we don't actually running for Bible that we found at the almost. Nobody does in part because of the the difficulties on problems.

00:23:34
I mean that that's probably more examples you can give but these kind of Unstoppable systems of which Bitcoin is one and I also kind of think of pirate bay is one as well. He seems to be like whatever they try to do to switch that off is impossible. But what can we learn from things like Bitcoin in future for future on simple systems that people want to build all the things that you want to build a wall the key learning from that?

00:24:00
I mean decentralisation at all at all cost that is the you know, the the sort of ultimate uncompromising principal you the second you centralize power including trust is is the sort of the seedling of the cancer. It doesn't mean that it kills you today. It just means that you planted the seed of demise and so when you think about a decentralized system like Bitcoin running on centralized infrastructure, then in fact, it is not be centralized the the enemies of Bitcoin may have to go to more Extreme Measures to stop it such as you know actually going to the is teas going to Amazon and digitalocean and shutting things down and put it is possible. So you're you're talking about you basically built laying the groundwork for a huge battle later as opposed to small battles today. And so we're coming in and saying will weed the whole thing to be

00:25:00
It's got to be decentralised down to the base Bitcoin needs a decentralized infrastructure upon which to reside if it's going to remain resilient to increasing levels of attack from increasingly powerful adversary. So that's what we're attempting to do is actually lathes at the base layer Foundation of a decentralized internet and I know that sounds like a crazy statement because it again it is sort of this thing people joke about as like iOS just build a new internet but it actually is possible and it's possible in a non-network affect type of way. Then we don't need everyone to buy into the concept of a decentralized internet to build a decentralized internet. You can actually build it one brick at a time such that if you sort of get on board with this concept in this technology that you gain personal private benefit from doing it, even if nobody else in the world is using it but then every subsequent

00:26:00
Into joins this with you. They don't just get the value of joining the network like you did you and for mentally gain value the more people that join so it's valuable to begin with but as it's scales value diffuses equally to everyone has a gross gross and that's the approach that we're taking is that this little device that goes in your living room. Yeah. It's a private server, but it's actually one brick of the future internet device. When you say its first question is this like a different place on the Internet or is it how I interact with into that? Yeah. So this is a little bit based on the previous question as well. Essentially what we have here is you have a personal server sitting on your the embassy really is a casing for it.

00:27:00
A bunch of custom software, which is essentially make server management. What is being done on digitalocean? For example, extremely easy sew with just the companion app. You can install Services which are in a medium, or maybe it's the back end for a messaging app with the backend for email transfer all kinds of stuff that we have plans for a lightning strike a pose it down run that software and suddenly you're running a full Lightning node. Just like that question. Is it a different writing the traditional for the structure is that we've essentially in terms of inter box communication inter Embassy communication when that does take place, perhaps between perhaps between Bitcoin nodes or perhaps in a messaging.

00:28:00
We've replaced sort of the traditional Clearnet internet structure with the corps Network and other sort of privacy sort of enhanced idea what that means is we're riding the traditional rails, but we're doing it in such a way that you get completely novel property. So not only do you have the idea that your data is physically located on this box when you are communicating with someone else is end-to-end encrypted by default. There is nothing to see or read in between those two points during that ran transition. But if you were cut off and see try to examine that message you wouldn't even know who is talking to who there's no way to kind of supposed to be an itemized and it's completely private on the Bass Down.

00:28:48
So you want me to jump in elaborate a little bit. So we need to talk about a decentralized internet the base layer of all of this is this is the cables physical telecommunications infrastructure. We are riding on that doesn't mean that we always have to write on that like mesh networks are a thing. And for instance if there were enough embassies present in any given geographic area in the future those embassies could with you know, the proper software installed which of course it will be meshed together and essentially form their own internet which then could you know through one radio signal Leaf get to another internet in the next neighborhood and next thing, you know, you've actually done away with the the the physical infrastructure that the internet rides on today, but that is a sort of ball that is an emergent property of what we're building that could in that could happen in the future. In the meantime. We're actually using the existing infrastructure because it's because

00:29:48
Just sitting there and ready for it, but we have bypassed. So the layer of the sac that we are really doing after is Clearnet. We're going after what most people think of as the internet which is, you know, HTTP blah blah blah. And what we're doing is we're using the physical cable lines. Modems and routers to Route tour traffic as opposed to clear that traffic's most people refer to torr and torr websites hidden Services as the dark web. And what we're doing is we're just leveraging the dark web to do ordinary things. So we're actually trying to make the dark web the web and that is the layer of the internet that we are trying to replace right now the fact that replacing that later also affords us a future Prospect of replacing the infrastructure is not lost on us, but it is not a current and dish it because it's not possible today will send the dog was Ben misbranded Anyway by Cold wraps. Webb and all the stories you read about it is his drug dealers and petafiles.

00:30:48
This is what we really talked about hear the private web and private that correct. Yes. So we would love to Rebrand the dark web the private web which is what it really is. The fact that people sell drugs on the private web make sense. If drugs are illegal in your jurisdiction, but that is not the only use case of privacy clearly corrupted or stolen do I know the run the risk of losing all my data. So today if you were say using bitwarden a which is our self hosted password manager that we offer on the embassy or I sold that point out that had fun stored on it and you didn't have your demonic backed up and your house flooded or you smash the thing to bits with a hammer than your data would be gone an immediate which is not it's not. Okay, right. We are still a beta product the very next feature that is launching with the next version of Ambassador. Ambassadors are operating system is a data backup tool that will evolve over.

00:31:48
Time and become something quite special actually in the early days did the first release will be a very simple USB style back up where you plug USB and you click a button and the entire date of the embassy Aldi service data and Ambassador data stored on this USB stick and then go store it wherever you want. And you do that manually in the very near future after that really is very sore and Elder 8 style of team get something out that works and is user-friendly and then they get better and better the next iteration of data backup. The embassy will be self-hosted backups in a cloud whatever you want. Right so you can host it up on a different Embassy of yours. You could post it on your digital ocean. And since you can even put it on Google Drive, right? It's a fully encrypted blob of data that just sits on any cloud service provider you want in the chances of you know, both digital ocean Google Drive and your friends Embassy all going down at the same time and using all these back-ups is super rare, but it's still a little bit of a

00:32:46
Manual process where you're like, okay back it up or you know schedule a once-a-day backup at this time. The Holy Grail of data storage and backup in our case is disability to essentially have an automated process where your Embassy is taking data that it considers to be important because maybe you said all that this is really important data crank up the redundancy or this is data that I don't really care much about turn the redundancy down. It's okay if I lose it and based on your settings and how important you say. Something is your Mac will automatically using the Tor Network to network with other embassies similar to other decentralised protocols be able to store shards of encrypted data on other people's devices and they don't even know about this right like they turned it on something. Obviously. You need to get into a song. You know you join this network?

00:33:38
And Maya Missy will now store whole backups of you know, broken up an encrypted data on random people servers around the world and pay them to do so using lightning so I can do a chunk of data and I'm like keep it safe for me and I'll give you some I give you some stats then, you know, every two seconds I'm pinging your server right and saying do you have my entire data? Do you have my entire data and you can prove to me right using using cryptography and medical roots that you have the entire set of data. You can basically sign a message like that. You have the whole set that I gave you and every time you prove this may I send you one so she so it's just like yours is so so she proves that you have my data and then it's whatever reason you don't my device would automatically find somebody else to store it on and start doing that. So this is a very like kind of Holy Grail of distributed data storage with financial incentives system that were talking about that is not

00:34:38
Tell yet. Nobody has tackled this yet, but the pieces to make something like this possible exist. We internally have the ability to build something like this. It would take a lot of time obviously, but we are actually, you know, hoping that from an open source for second. This becomes like a big project that lots of people can collaborate on and take interest in but it's not not today. That's not tomorrow. It's the day after tomorrow.

00:35:03
Next. I told Matt an hour and more about purchasing Bitcoin. But before that I got a message from my amazing son says so. Let's talk about sports bats. Have you checked out. They are the best place online gaming and you know, why? Why are they the best because they accept Bitcoin of course cuz I absolutely badasses. I don't spend a lot of time the team I even flew over to Western you to meet them. Hang out grab is it was a hung out with the CEO? I don't just accept Bitcoin. They actively promote it and they're going to be doing a lot of cool stuff over this next year. Now. We do have a little bit of football to clear up before the end of the season We Are the Champions League in the Europa League starting back up on very much looking forward to seeing Man City play Real Madrid and to celebrate this return suppose by challenging you to complete a number of missions where you can win prizes in Bitcoin ATM go to one Bitcoin price. You can find out more about this on their website head over to sports bet. IO Forsyth promotions that is sportsbet promotions will so we going to talk about cars.

00:36:03
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00:37:03
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00:37:17
So looking forward to sleep. We want Financial privacy because we understand the risk associated with people being able to hold governments being able to track of finances. We want to see within our Communications for Acosta emails. We don't live right by Google private Communications, perhaps that look like blue Beauty Supply signal but the others other things such as telegram excetera. What are the things that you think people should be considered and I switched off all my light a shin tracking things on my phone at one point and that she just made my phone really difficult to use a number of things. I wanted the technology.

00:38:06
What is really useful even been such as I'm Google is he really useful or knows where my location is so dumb, sometimes there's a trade-off that like, how do we do with things like that? So in the short-term, there's going to be a trade-off and you'll have to make that trade-off in the long-term after tomorrow, but maybe he stays after tomorrow on Thursday of this week, but it in the law in the long enough turn. There is no reason why any feature that you can imagine so

00:38:40
Google Maps with location services turned on Etc. There is no reason why all of that software all of those features can be hosted in a distributed decentralized fashion across the network of embassies. It is just a matter of gradually and slowly probably over a lot of time. Hopefully a lot quicker once the open source Community sort of unleash on our products with the the release of the SDK. That's very forthcoming a gradual migration of these features that we've come to know and rely on from the traditional sort of centralized server backing Clearnet web down into the decentralized embassy backed more other personal server backed private web. There's just nothing nothing in principle that makes any feature that you can see it just sort of not replicated with enough development Simon enever R GitHub repo called awesome awesome stealth

00:39:40
And it's just a huge collection of self-hosted Open Source software and you start to realize if you look through this list of like a thousand different projects and software that almost everything that you can do in a centralized trusted third-party way. You can also do in a self-hosted distributed decentralized way. The problem is technical expertise. The problem is that every single one of those projects has a read me that involve the command line and that requires that you know, a server by their physical or cloud-based and that requires an understanding of Linux and that may require other people to be on the network and you're just you're done before you start and it's like, you know, a self-hosted project management tool instead of Gera. Well, who does that when jerez a push of a button and 15 bucks a month? Why would you buy servers and set it up yourself, you know with all that effort. So our roadmap is actually not a if you build it they will come strategy.

00:40:40
They're already here. They've been here for decades. Actually the open source software ecosystem is Rich and growing by the day and most of those projects are founded and run and maintained by sort of the starving artist types. It's the developers were passionate about what they're building and put their lifeblood into these projects only to you. No have a few technical people from their telegram chat run it and provide feedback and contribute in some more successful than others, but we are trying to unleash things right? We're not saying that we're going to do this platform. Okay jobs now come and develop for us that we're building this platform that opens the floodgates of things you have already built such that they can be used by average non-technical people all over the world.

00:41:29
When does the device sit between my a century between my it's a laptop and my router. Yes, correct. The you can meet you interface with the embassy from either at your laptop desktop or mobile device and it's all over tour. So even the traffic between your device and your Embassy your device meaning your mobile device in your Embassy is private interrupted and tend secure with no trusted third parties. You are riding on the the isps write like you're still going through the router through the modem through the cable. But yeah all my data coming in and out of my property is route driver tool all of it. That's interesting. But one of the problems I've always have with with tour is

00:42:25
You slow down your internet usage. Yes sure that we are very well where I was and know how to fix it. So we do not intend to ride on the door rails forever tour for us primarily solved not the Privacy problem. The Privacy aspects of tour would like a really cool, you know nice to have there are other ways to achieve privacy and then you can use you know, shared secrets and encrypted lines of communication. You don't have to onion route things that you can do intend encryption by exchanging secrets between devices tour primarily solve for us the addressability problem, which is that normally when you have a device in your home and you want to talk to it from outside of your home, you have to setup port forwarding and potentially get a static IP address from your eye from your internet service provider.

00:43:24
And that in itself is a hassle and a technical fee. It's not crazy. But it is enough to deter most people so for us and it's not just about you talking from your phone to the Embassy in your home and needing to find that thing like literally is IP address on the internet. How do you find it? It's also the embassy finding each other right Bitcoin is finding each other. They just they can discover each other easily and without having to worry about any kind of port forwarding or static IP is using Tor I said, it said not punching technique that allows us to sort of circumvent. The ift is in the router and say okay your Embassy Ambassador OS the operating system if your Embassy and every single service that runs on the embassy is hosted on its own hidden service with unique. Onion URL meaning you can find this thing in the world is through the haze of the internet through any Tor Browser. All you need to do is open up a browser this capable of resolving. On your knees.

00:44:24
Route Brave Firefox tour or forthcoming our own so intent on the product roadmap and discover your Embassy simply by knowing it's onion URL.

00:44:38
Okay. So what what are the risks with this fries on the side? I setup my Embassy I connect to the internet but this going to be seven things websites I use where I'm going to leave in about the trail weather in Germantown to Amazon to buy something you're signing into Twitter something like that. If it was like his lost you can encrypt the data go in a very difficult to have a private experience on the net. Is it going to. Other companies to change an offer some kind of private experience of there as well or is it like this acceptance that we have to public and private profile on the exist side-by-side. I guess. The first thing that comes to mind is that there are there are some companies big companies. The one I have in mind is just Facebook actually, which do have we are hosting versions of their site in the Tor Network itself, which means you could actually use Facebook in such a way. I wouldn't necessarily recommend ever using Facebook for the record, but there are ways that you could communicate

00:45:38
And ends in this in through the Tor Network roadmap stuff that you were talking about before an important features to bring down into the embassy but I mean the issue with Facebook and God I've been reading just a ton of extremely concerning. It's just the amount of data that's being collected possibly would almost certainly without your knowing it in incredibly in some way somewhat nefarious. I was actually just reading that the Facebook SDK as of 2018. So this is something that any app that you ever installed onto your phone that I lost with Facebook reading gets the option to off of Facebook tells Facebook every time you open that even if you don't even log into Facebook you try to unlock with something else in Facebook knows what apps you've installed on your phone. So it's just like an outrageous. It is its own surveillance state in and of itself.

00:46:38
And that data is weaponizer bull and has been weaponized for hyper targeted marketing campaign. And that's almost a really generous way to say. It is political manipulation campaigns washer political dissidents political efforts out of their place. I mean in data in all of the AI stuff we have available. Oh my God like that. It's it's horrifying sort of how precisely you can bumbar people with fake or altered or biased news articles or whatever and get them to change their mind who they do that until I mean, we're we're far away from this but social networking needs to be brought down to a

00:47:38
Boulware Facebook and say this or that way I can see to solve this problem for for sure is to take a social network like that and blasted into pieces all over hosted and on all of these different embassies are private personal Starburst, and then there is no single source of data anymore. If you want to know, you know, what at whatever they said in the documentary 5000 datapoint some people in America to go to each person in America and ask for their data because they're the only ones that have it and that seems like the only the only possible they stand for against something sure. Yes, that's true. But I mean the data were talking about is like you could say that but you know on Facebook, there's so much more data. That's also been tracked. It's like what you have liked. It's what you

00:48:38
What articles you've clicked on it stuffing you're not sharing publicly. It's just you using the platform that gives the expressivity is that just enhances the data to a point where it's just you can become legal. So used to you envision. We're moving to a weapon that we still having public profiles will people may be choosing Now notes have public profiles on the internet and it said just have some kind of anonymous identity which they use for interacting with different size is so pretty song before I wanted to shout from Amazon. Could I have a Anonymous identity to shop with them and only share the information I need to do my shopping and get rid of something like Facebook with you. If it's just that that's not really cuz I didn't think you'd be terribly helpful. Like if you take a platform like Reddit which is to do Anonymous at a minimum. So you have you noticed a username and if you do is read it right you nobody should know who dissociates do never the last

00:49:38
Reddit has a ton of data about that username. You sell that data and you start advertising to that specific user. Whoever that is on you could you know change their mind about something get them to buy a product get them to vote for a particular candidate doesn't matter who's on the other end. The danger we have is not knowing is not targeting a single person because they don't like Aaron it's targeting a single person because they know everything about that person and the way that comes about is because you have a centralized platform that is all of the users in one place.

00:50:10
Okay, that's the real problem to advertising.

00:50:34
I want you know, the most bang for Maybach I'm going to attack the thing that has the most significant resources. Whereas if the day distributed the effort of attacking each individual compartments might be a little bit less than attacking Twitter say like I don't have to put as much resources into it, but they all shared publicly every single day to get your information. I have to ask you to get Aaron's information. I have to attack Aaron nickel-and-diming my way through life and so it doesn't make sense.

00:51:31
I want to clear up a potential misunderstanding the Gateway generally speaking to the whole internet when you don't use your Embassy to browse. Amazon.com use Housing Services that are hosted on hidden Services Tor hidden services. And so you would interact with them directly. And if you wanted to do something else you go over to the dark side the clear that right you actually overlap so

00:52:18
The concept that I just using the normal internet and that everything's been trapped in cage private mode, like incognito mode and inside of this browser you are safe to browse before his services that are running on your own physical server in your own home knowing that there are no middlemen involved in investigating the data in any sort of a safe place for the padded room.

00:53:18
Grows and grows in Brooklyn is reached. Patients fry and eventually be sure to toss your phone. Right and you can you get a phone that engages privacy moved by the fall of the existing price on private mode as a choice. Yes, cuz I come down and visit your scenario white people don't have public profiles and things that doing publicly that certain things. If for example the best pasta Twitter all the discussions between people who have chosen to Doc's themselves onto it's at like I am Peter McCormack. This is what I do and I represent myself. Like if everything's moved to another MSN Anonymous identities, we know the quality of said any experience is usually with regards to commenting talkin discussing my day.

00:54:18
Is that the cause he drops so I can see this and are as well like I'm okay. I'm want to be using Bitcoin. I don't want to be tracked. I want I want this all over tour, which is great. I can also season are as Wi-Fi. I don't want my emails read all I want to be sending messages. I don't want the privately I can also even envisaged a t, Senora's with a certain things. I want to be buying which is completely unknown of us at the same time. I think there's a whole part of the web web other things. I want want to be anonymous but really this is just like one step up from we know incognito mode, really.

00:54:56
What is primarily used for people watching porn right, but but at the same time what we're saying here is this is like these will be sudden sanara's when people will be self when I like I need to be in this private mode pick up the seven things. I'm doing a little bit to your comments about anonymous anonymous vs public profiles because I think it's a little bit maybe it's maybe a little bit of a misunderstanding perhaps of what we could possibly do with these Technologies. So for example, depending on the social network you're looking at so Twitter is a very public sort of public kind of oriented in the sense that if I follow you and I really pay attention to everything you're doing I can pretty much see everything you're doing and so in a way like potential I could set up a bunch of box and I can have them follow a bunch of people and I can just started from mine data from what is public facing.

00:55:56
Text there's not really much that we would be able to do it just for the based on the structure of the social network itself on the other hand work. Like Facebook Facebook is a different story cuz you can have a public profile wear a lot of stuff that you are doing as a member with that profile is and should be private. So you have your messaging with other people you have interactions with person and if you don't want person be to be able to see this is all about the privacy settings that they have etcetera and so because even though tour is anonymous which means that if you were to cut traffic or intercept traffic between each other once I traffic appears on the other end and gets decrypted Becca have your public information in it, so I could do we could do Facebook as public profiles. I would have my public profile all of the sort of individual servers that are talking to each other are spraying these profiles all around. So we all get a bunch of them.

00:56:55
And the experience looks a lot like Facebook, but what is private on that platform, which is the stuff that you're doing that I can't see stays private because there's no Central Facebook as collecting all of it from everybody.

00:57:11
So it's really not as things in between public or Anonymous profiles in in a social network. Is it really a distinction between regardless of public Anonymous? What is extracting what has its octopus hands in every single person's private life and is pulling it out and that's what we don't the main point here is that there needs to be a clear distinction between what is private what is public into the public? Right? Nobody hears arguing that public forums and social media shouldn't exist that I shouldn't be able to decide who I am and what I believe I should know when I didn't know that I should know what data is being collected by whom and what is being used for in the ability.

00:58:11
like we are shooting for a private by default approach to technological infrastructure and then going knowing that anyone on Earth and harvest that data and do analytics on it and advertise to you in whatever I want to hear existence and I have kids and if we want to

00:58:57
From my property it is exposed to this is a large amount of encrypted data going in and out and that would create any suspicion around my property using that type of surveillance capability is going to be rightly have any idea where it's coming from or why you're doing it or what the content is the things you like. He's doing Friday and to get around this for the foundation has means what are called fridge knows where you could you know, kind of you know, but it's not her face and sometimes are hard to find in the bridge note app advertised.

00:59:54
So the chi here is the for the network with private traffic, right? If you make the dark web the private they like Alexa targeted cancer say, okay, just one person out of a thousand is using for

01:00:19
movie times in cycle K2 it all or nothing game in which case, you know, everything will be shut the internet down. So another sort of products, you know, how he is a virgin of teacher for a higher care products as as your capabilities not only for you, but also managing other Home iot devices. So security camera, doorbells door lock things like that could all be managed.

01:01:19
and governed by a train right of the operation without sharing any of that scary place right now, but I thought I've had about like like a heart monitor is being able to be hacked with inside people baby monitor as being able to be to be high and like look at the cameras inside the home and what are they would like some weed baby monitor with someone was talking to a child and she's like I are there in about the inside your home as an individual what one of the other things like one of the consequences of having big one is like

01:02:04
Essentially kind of money which which is his permission osetra is that it is able to be used by Anna Faris characters. We have to accept that North Korea is using this as Ron's using is Venezuela's using this and I guess they're all outside of personal desires for improving our own privacy. There is the the reality that what you were crazy cool. So we'll be used by Anna Faris characters. Do you think about the morality of that?

01:02:38
I think the important thing to start with at least is that we think about it a lot. We take this very seriously. I think there's a bit of a tendency especially kind of the cryptocurrency communities to kind of gloss over questions. Like this does a lot of good stuff if it's used for evil, whatever like it's not part of our it's not what the technology was designed for in whatever but it's something that we were really thinking a lot about and I think for us it comes down to a sort of a variety of different things the most important one I'll leave leave for the end but it really comes down to what if we didn't make it. What's the around not having I think that's the most important thing but let me say a couple of things before before we get there.

01:03:23
One thing to know for sure is that we are making something that already exists more convenient. So we're riding on for the cryptography and protocols that existed now for 20 years that criminals whoever these people are certainly know about. It's not like the stuff is completely secret. It takes a fair bit of technical expertise to use this stuff easily or to use it well, but certainly if your livelihood depends on doing criminal activity and not being caught by having your emails read by Google. We at least imagine that it wouldn't wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility to be using this technology is making it more convenient and thus allowing me and you and the non-criminal users of Bitcoin like most of us and the non-criminal people in general. We're allowing them to have access to the exact same defenses in tools that otherwise Criminal

01:04:23
From those very criminals who may be organizing stuff like hacks on Twitter or hacks on centralized internet stuff. So it protects us from them and it also protects us from all of the government overreach in the corporate of a reach that we're seeing all the all over the world that already exists and there is the potential that we're sort of enabling some small-time Crooks to kind of get access to some technologies that otherwise they don't have the expertise and don't have the time to learn but the benefits I think our are massively outweigh. So yeah. I've been looking into a sort of a lot of a lot of the sort of ethical arguments around around the stuff in order to be able to deal with that question well in to convince myself, even at this is definitely on the right side of History a second thing to definitely look at it as sort of legal precedent and the various countries in the world where this may be may be useful in the United States where we're selling first.

01:05:23
And wear it in some sense the hardest sell because we had a lot of sort of Liberties that are protected. It's very interesting that the Fourth Amendment here, which is the protection against unreasonable search and seizure just neatly and without any sort of debate as far as I'm aware. I'm not a Supreme Court Justice but based on my readings of these cases just very neatly put what we're doing is protected by the Fourth Amendment so stuff like currently there is What's called the third party Doctrine and I want to take things too far off the rails. It essentially says that when you custody information with a third-party the government can gain access to that information without a search warrant. So it based on the fact that you are sort of giving this information away. Freely. It can be argued that you're not reading it as private information. And if you're not treating it privately then the government doesn't need to get a search warrant in Toronto in Plainview.

01:06:21
No surcharge payment can possibly be met or what we're doing it started because there is no custody in 3rd party. And so to even attempt to look at an embassy or the traffic between the embassy to even attempt to decrypt or if you understand that would be illegal without a search warrant. I'm so when you think about the ethics of this it seems to me like the Constitution itself. The US Constitution is very much and just for the precedent that is growing very much is designed to protect this kind of thing specifically and so privacy is built in at the base of this country. And I know that the UK I think is probably a little bit a bit less in terms of civil liberties. So I think that's another important point and then finally the ethics of not doing the efforts of not having this device are you know, you can see what's happening in China specifically the censorship.

01:07:21
For the Muslim communities taking hold right now is is is very scary censorship around even Tiananmen Square massacre self-censorship been reported because if you know that everything you're doing is being washed and people are actually being taken out of their houses and imprisoned. You're probably not going to say what you actually think and it's like, you know, when you want to just shakes out at the end. It just doesn't even seem like it's a close call. So there are what's the Big Planet like you very cool you doing I'm going to be checking out the device and spend a bit of time with you guys here.

01:08:05
So start 9 as a company began with Brewing my attempt to set up a lightning node on my digital ocean and something I'm definitely capable of doing I have a background software engineering and I went through to do that and nobody would do that unless you had enormous time and expertise on your hand. So, you know at the time Erin Egan Aiden in myself, the four founders of start nine were incubating A bit chaotic Lately by Design in back to discover and improve business. And so I went to Keegan person just like why is this so hard I should just be able to push a button and have a lightning and

01:09:05
Obviously not that easy process. So we started looking onto the market for a solution that already existed and found a couple named Licata at the time was the real known solution to a plug-and-play Bitcoin and lightning full node. So we found a lot of things that we like in here in Denver and talk to them about Casa and their plans for the future and you know, it say it's been discontinued their nose products, which is something we actually sense that the time based on that dinner or something Keegan and I was pushing forward even doing that dinner was

01:09:59
What about email? What about messaging? What about data? Why just have a plug-and-play Bitcoin full node, when you could have a plug-in play personal server that runs all sorts of self-hosted Open Source applications and protocols interested. I think that had been kicked around but it became very clear to us that they were not going to pursue that sort of Holy Grail of personal Computing. And so we'd like to do that and we ran it with cyarin here and Aiden and not only determined that this was something I wanted to do something that was good and then righteous even in the context of history, but something that we actually could do we can use that we had the expertise to pull something like that off. And so we we just hit the ground running and you know, we lost our first node server. I don't want to call to know this is really much more than that. We want their first personal server about 6 months later.

01:10:59
Okay, so very interesting like so I'm going to go play with it and I'm going to come by to you and talk to you about my experience with that. But if people want to find out more where do they go to cuz it's obviously super interesting. Our website is start 9 labs.com. Start with a 9 labs.com. We are starting on Labs on Twitter. We have a mailing list that you can sign up for but and we would tell you can join which is start my labs Community. We will be launching another Community Channel on a Southwest it infrastructure called Matrix, which is a kind of do-it-yourself telegram slack that will soon be available on them to see that people can join us for a few different Avenues, but the starting point is starting lens.com.

01:11:42
It's very cool. Very interesting you doing very important work. I'm really glad you guys came in the Park House Grace told you about it, and hopefully we will talk again in the future. I'll be all set up with you around to let me know when she got to set up cool. Thanks again for having us.

01:12:03
Okay, what do you make a night? Did you enjoy that? I think will Matt and I are in a building with starting line is really really fucking cool. It's obvious that they're in the early stages of the moment. And I think they're trying to make privacy easy and by bringing it to the last text Savvy audience is important walk as I said, I thought my Embassy I'm going to be setting up over the weekend. I'm going to have to play with this as a listen to the show. If you do any questions, you can reach out to meet. My email address is hello a whoopie content.com. If you want us to pull the show head over to my website what Bitcoin did don't call me click on the support section. And as I mentioned in the intro of the trailers dropped for my new full pot series about heavy metal band The Ghost Inside School 1233 days. It tells his amazing story of how they're in a fatal bus crash in 2015 and that for your journey to the comeback show in Los Angeles a shirt that I was fortunate to go to the trainers off on the Fox. News check that out and not sure we'll be dropping next week outside of that have an amazing week and I will see you all soon.
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