The Dig - Border Patrol with Kelly Lytle Hernández

Dan interviews Kelly Lytle Hernández on MIGRA! A History of the U.S. Border Patrol. Dan's 2017 interview with Lytle Hernández on City of Inmates: Conquest, Rebellion, and the Rise of Human Caging in Los Angeles, 1771-1965: Support this podcast at

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Content Keywords: Mexican immigrants
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Welcome to The Dig a podcast from Jacobin magazine. My name is Daniel Denver and I'm broadcasting from Providence Rhode Island a place from which according to our neighboring states. I am suddenly not allowed to leave without a negative covid-19 or a two-week quarantine thinking through this reality that our politics obsession with guarding our borders against external enemies of pretending that keeping those bad guys out would keep our exceptional American people safe all while defending and neglecting every sort of Social and Health and economic thing that might have actually kept people safe that this is all contributed mightily to this disaster in the resulting situation of soft borders being erected to curb domestic travel between states.

It is a deeply messed up in revealing. Irony. This episode is about the border patrol US Customs and Border Protection home to the border patrol is this country's largest law enforcement agency, but in the early 1990s border patrol had just around 4,000 agents by the time Trump took office. It boasted a force of roughly 20,000. This is Trump's Brazen xenophobia has for many suddenly revealed the existence of a massive deportation and immigration enforcement machine constructed by Trump's bipartisan predecessors. The president's deployment of border patrol Tactical Unit bortac agents to repress domestic to send him Portland has suddenly made it clear that the long bipartisan border War has created a powerful central government police force that can act with impunity anywhere.

As my returning guest today Kelly Lytle Hernandez puts it welcome to the Borderlands border patrol has long subjected Mexican and Mexican-American people throughout vast swathes of the Southwest and Beyond to policing surveillance detention search humiliation and brutality. The border patrol is Monster size by pledging to keep bad Outsiders immigrants drug smugglers terrorists out of a deeply connected system of mass incarceration in American policing have metastasized on the pretext of keeping bad people Outsiders on the inside of American Life locked up inside prisons.

Unsurprisingly what we see today is that these carceral forces built up to protect the American people against these various outside others are now freewheeling forces of repression in the hands of President Trump.

The wars abroad in at the border have always provided a justification for the construction of expansive systems of Oppression that Menace a growing number of people everywhere. This is what happens. When you give up your freedom in the name of protecting your freedom against the spectacular evil that purportedly threatens your freedom. This is the new liberal State continuously returning to its Schmitty and impulse to protect the repressive State through more repression. This is what happens when us Empire any. Of simultaneous expansion and crisis quixotic Wars Record in equality. And now an out-of-control plague is the planet Kilts in the climate chaos makes a Neroli circumscribed conception of security its fundamental principle of governance. This security principal was the principal adopted by the border and crime Wars launched by Bill Clinton and by the war on terror launched with bipartisan support under George.

You push all wars continued by Barack Obama. The guy who was elected to exercise the bush administration's demons the enforced border functions to create the illusion of a discreet and secure nation-state amid, the chaos and contradictions of global Empire and capitalism, but border enforcement always expands outward and inward the pivot point between an Interlink military and policing system that knows no bounds the settlement of the contradictions these projections of Law & Order of a neat division between inside and outside always proved to be provisional the contradiction between the u.s. Is global exercise of neo-colonial power on the one hand and our herrenvolk settler politics hidden behind the cold War's frayed liberal Garb can't be permanently reconciled. Neither can the contradiction between a capitalist orders demand for a cast of racialized Labor.

And that seemed order producing a white supremacist politics that seeks to expel and US deny the value produced by those racialized worker others coronavirus traveling along capitals cross-border circuits and exposing the security States spectacular inability to make people's lives actually secure appears to be a turning point, but to understand all this we got to go back to 1924 when the Border Patrol was founded to enforce the country's newly expansive and brazenly racist immigration restriction regime to understand it as the successor to the mounted guard which was founded in 1904 whose mounted guard Chinese inspectors sought to enforce Chinese Exclusion.

It also successor to the white supremacist settler violence of the Texas Rangers back to win quote border patrols policing of Mexican immigrants created a powerful get contested institution in the Borderlands by introducing a new regime of authority over the Region's labor Supply the history behind today's monstrous border patrol is the topic of Kelly Lytle Hernandez is really into book Migra a history of the US border patrol, and that is what I'm discussing with Kelly Lytle Hernandez today.

Lytle Hernandez rights history in a way unlike anyone. I know she writes these beautiful stories woven together with poetic prose that bring her careful archival research to life on the page in 2017. I interviewed her on her book city of inmates Conquest rebellion, and the rise of human caging in Los Angeles 1771 to 1965 and a link to that episode in the show notes. I'll add that. This book nigra was instrumental in helping me write my own book All American nativism. I cannot recommend it enough.

Anyhow a short interlude these episodes are only possible because you my dear listeners support this podcast at the Dig.

Preparing for these interviews paying my wonderful producer Alex Lewis to produce these interviews running our book club. All of that takes money and the dick is here for a nakedly political purpose to provide you people organizing to transform the world with the analysis that you need to do that that is why we are providing every episode always free to everyone with no pay while so that everyone can listen regardless of their ability to pay but if you can't afford to support us, that's where you come in we can we make this podcast freely available to everyone because those of you listening who can afford to do so contribute at the Dig

Take a quick moment to hit pause and contribute now if you have not done so already that is patreon. Com the deck. Thank you. Okay, here is Kelly Lytle Hernandez a professor of History African-American studies in urban planning at UCLA is the author of Migra and city of inmates and also the director and principal investigator for million-dollar hoods, a university-based community-driven research project the maps the physical and human cost of mass incarceration in Los Angeles.

Kelly Lytle Hernandez, welcome back to the dick. Thank you so much for having me at the pleasure.

Why is understanding the first half-century or so of the history of the border patrol a time when it was a relatively little known agency outside of the Borderlands. Why is that important to understanding what it has become particularly since the 1990s since when it is roughly quintuple in size and is now the face of this high-profile border security politics under President of both parties are now under Trump part of a border security police entity that is being deployed to repress political dissent. Why is this history important? It is the DNA of a few we are the origin story of the border patrol is that it was the gun with the intention and the DNA to be a white supremacist organization police organization and that has remained consistent over time and what I mean, I thought they could go back and spend a little time talking about these early days of the Perpetual but what's yours?

Being on the streets today is a president who has articulated a firm commitment to white supremacy calling out a law enforcement agency. That was if not, the first one of the first in terms of the Fraternal Order of retired officers their Association came out early and support Donald Trump candidacy for president and he has called them out to suppress the uprising for black life. That is now unfolding across the country. So it's entirely on surprising to me. That's the Border Patrol was the law enforcement agency on tap to do this work for this President. He could have great faith in what the word virtual would deliver on the streets of this country would be in line with the vision of making America great again that he has laid out. You mentioned the border patrol thing found it as a white supremacist organization you write about the Capri.

History of the border patrol in terms of the conquest settlement of Texas and you write that Anglo American farmers use the violence perpetrated by the Texas Rangers to make quote South Texas into a region dominated by Anglo American farmers, and these were not Jeffersonian ideal type small holders, but rather these factories in the field made possible by these huge irrigation and transportation projects that incorporated the Southwest so recently conquered from Mexico into American capitalism. So an opening question to set the scene for the rise of the border patrol, how did South Texas agribusiness and in Southwestern agribusiness in general fit into American political economy at the time and how did that and turn transform the region?

As late as the early 20th century and the remaining Pockets Rich tree today. South Texas wasn't is a Mexicana majority set of counties in communities and the penetration of anglo-american capital came relatively late to that region. How did they get access to the principal asset of region land was through a variety of methods South Texas pass a series of tax laws that made it difficult for ranching families to hold on to their property is the property would be auctioned off Benjamin Johnson speaks about this quite a bit in his work.

They also used racial Terror and so the the rise of anti Mexican lynchings in the early 20th century in South Texas is directly related to the penetration of ankle American Capital on to the beach and and the search for one land and access to cheap land by scaring off the landholders and also have access to a marginalized and hide the least Mexican migrant labor force. And so that's how that happened in the early 20th century. Were you have the arrival of anglo-americans hospital and they gain access to land that had been claimed by Mexican landholders for decades if not centuries in a long historical battle with the various indigenous communities of the beach and I met how that transition happened was through a larger tax law and through racial Tara.

Show me exploited and expropriated racialized group living under an angle American capitalism at the time but they were the group that became cord to the entire Southwestern economy you write that in California genocide handmade indigenous labor unavailable Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882 meant that Chinese workers were not a viable option you write that outside of South Texas where where slavery existed there was resistance to black migration, even with South Texas black Southerners were migrating North because of the World War 1 fuel Great Migration. Japanese workers were to organize militant same with Filipinos who could continue to come even after Asian exclusion because they were colonial Nationals at least until immigration Filipino immigration shut off in 1934 is part of the legislation that allowed for the independence of the Philippines and so agribusiness looked to Mexican labor. How did they that play out both both in California, Arizona and also,

South Texas and how were Mexicans fit into the into the country is prevailing black white divided attention that you can domik and cultural tensions within white supremacy nearly flaring up during this time. You have the capitalists were saying we need to have access to marginalize racialized labor force temporary labor force and you have the cultural nationalism entirely. Sure White Society. We don't want to have any fish lights outside is here and they're all doing battle with each other during this time. Passing legislation back and forth about the construction of white power what the Dynamics of that would be as the exclusiveness gain ground through a variety of immigration restrictions that categorically brand

Asian immigrants arriving in the country that create a set of pressures that would discourage black migration into the region and that violently rapaciously claimed land from indigenous folks through war and broken treaties. What happened was the agribusiness folks the railroads figured out that they really only had one source of racialized marginalize Labor left and that was Mexican immigrants. And so they aggressively went after and encourage Mexicans to immigrate to the United States in the early 20th century to take jobs up here. And so the rise of Mexican immigration which begins in the early 20th century happens really at the bequest of us employers were going down into Mexico and recruiting Mexicans to come north

At the same time in Mexico, there is a man who is president really a dictator who rules Mexico between Russell 1876 and 1911 is known as the CEO Diaz and he has put Mexico on a path of Rapid modernization what this meant was that Diaz was passing legislation enforcing legislation that diminish indigenous and communal land Road. Right? So people are losing access to their land campesinos are being displaced and turned into wage workers. So the same time that Diaz with us and European investors is rapidly modernized in the Mexican economy in ways that is displacing campesinos and Indigenous communities of us labor force going down to Mexico and inviting these displaced persons to come north to work. So the bonds that happened between the u.s. Mexicana me were constructed.

During this time. And that is the foundation of Mexican migration. United States is the the woven nature of the u.s. American economy. Is that happened during the early 20th century you right at the Border Patrol was not so much focused on a Mexican's for a brief moment before more interested in including the so-called back door to band Asian and restricted European migrants people used to arrive by see you right quote. The majority of person is standing trial in US District Courts for Chinese Japanese Eastern European and East Indian immigrants who had evaded u.s. Immigration restrictions by entering the United States without sanction there for to prevent unlawful entry to the United States three days after passing the National Origins Act of 1924 Congress set aside $1000000 to establish a land border patrol in the immigration Bureau of the US Department of Labor.

How did the nativist politics of the National Origins quota era shape the early border patrol because what was the quota system was abolished in 1965 the border patrol which was created to enforce. It has not only survived but wildly metastasized. Absolutely. That was the Pinnacle moment of US immigration restrictions leading to a whites-only immigration policy. So certainly beginning of the 1882 Chinese Exclusion Act leading through the Geary Act of 1892, which I'm not only band Chinese Laborers Pension the country but created the first immigrant registration system in the country the later exclusion of all Asian immigrants to the country that really All Leads.

The passage of the 1924 National Origins Act which set up a quota system that reserves over 90% all quota slots for European immigrants enter the United States while Banning. I'm all Asian immigrants. And so what this quote a lot puts together is a is the long quest for whites only immigration system was written that's what you asked for, which was established to enforce three days after the passage of the National Origins Act. So the legislators in Washington DC at that moment, we're thinking about largely the Asian immigrants who were evading the National Origins Act by crossing without authorization what really happens on the ground is quite different who was hired to be born with two officers during the 1920s are largely these local guys from the border region. They are typically

Working class guys who maybe had been ticket takers at the local theater or tram operators? They did not own land the willingly were white men who did not have access to land in a region that were power was mounted and then ownership. So what happens with these guys who get done get badges. I got to get uniforms make it Federal authorization to go out there and force this whites-only immigration legislation, which is expansive could be enforced in so many different ways is that They seized a bit of power for themselves and their own local communities by spending less time thinking about the Asian immigrants and European immigrants who are coming through the region and instead focusing their attention on policing the principal labor source of the agent just Mexican immigrants and some transition from a broad whites-only.

Rayshun want to really targeted focus on Mexican immigrants almost exclusively within the first couple years of the establishment of the u.s. Border patrol vehicle for economic and social advancement for white working-class people in the Borderlands an opportunity to achieve status through policing that was simultaneously about race making and and labor control you write a quote in contrast to the Borderland Farmers whose vocal and persuasive protest halted Congressional efforts to limit Mexican immigration Average White workers in the region often interpreted Mexican immigration as a source of competition in the labor market this in the Borderlands was a new source of power and the border patrols working class officers leverage their Federal authority to police unsanctioned migration in complicated and often contradictory ways that were only consistent in their mindfulness of opportunities to extract bits of dignity.

Respect status and power from the Region's social lead by policing their Workforce the border patrols turn for policing Mexicans. In other words with much more than a matter of Simply servicing the interest of agribusiness in capitalist Economic Development. It was a matter of community manhood whiteness Authority class respect the logging Brotherhood in the violence in the Greater, Texas Mexico Border Lands, really incredible paragraph. How was it that that border police in particular became his Avenue for status advancement in what does that intern reveal about the importance of avoiding overly simplistic deterministic counts of the role of of immigration enforcement or any sort of repressive apparatus in terms of the function it it has within capital of political economy.

And the function that can have within an individual's life right within the context that they live. So what happens in this context is you have these small Borderland communities that are dominated by local large landholders are almost exclusively white by the time you get to the 1920s and these folks would really control almost every aspect of local politics and culture. So you have young white men coming of age in this area that would be disparaged as white trash from the time that they were children as they're going into adulthood and what they're able to do with the border patrol have particular the federal law enforcement agency is a they find an escape hatch to get around these local power Brokers to find their own.

Piece of authority and they wield it as much as they possibly can to extract respect from the people who had been degrading them since they were children, right? So this is very personal for many of the officers are not necessarily thinking about the national political scene when it comes to developing a whites-only immigration system. They're thinking about how do I tell that asshole but they always been calling me names cuz I was a child that he's got to respect me. I do it through managing his Labor Force if I can't deny him access to the workers who will cannot pick the melons in his Fields today and they can rot there. I now have a position of power in this community and so in many cases that's what you're seeing happened in the communities across the border land is the young middle-aged white men were hired as Boerboel officers are going from Farm to farm extracting power from

The local head honchos in addition to this you have a smaller number of Mexican American officers who were hired specifically for any language ability, right who are identified and recruited for language abilities. And these guys join with a very similar but different politics in line in many cases. There is a quest to separate themselves from the large number of Mexican immigrants who are entering the region and so by joining the border patrol, they Place themselves above incoming immigrants, they set themselves apart from incoming immigrants and they helped to construct themselves as part of this narrative whiteness, which is broadening during this time. To include a variety of ethnic communities Italian immigrants, for example, Irish immigrants the boundaries of whiteness are broadening.

In the aftermath of the passage of the National Origins Act, which is made nice as draws a circle a large circle around all of Europe and says you all are inside now Asian immigrants are on the outside which is ironic because the National Origins quota is also very much targeted. The people would become the white ethnics the Italians the Polish, but it targeted them in a way that was for restriction rather than exclusion, right? Absolutely until unintended consequences that fact broadens the boundaries of whiteness Ryan the way play the yes, and so you see a good number of Mexican American officers trying to gain access to that broadening of of whiteness and they work very hard to distinguish themselves from the Mexican immigrants and two for example insist on being called Spanish American as opposed to Mexican American and Seducer lemax American officers join the fold and they are also very much.

Anna local politics of race and power the Borderlands from the get-go nativists wanted Mexicans out to they were not including the National Origins quota is indeed. The Western Hemisphere did not have any of these immigration restrictions or exclusions imposed people from of a nationality that was deemed correspond to nations in the Western Hemisphere. I guess it to be more precise but nativist certainly wanted Mexicans out one Congressman said quote. What is the use of closing the front door to keep out undesirables from Europe when you permit Mexicans to come in here by the back door by the thousands and thousands are Great Southwest is rapidly creating for itself a new racial problem. As our old South did when is imported slave labor from Africa?

But as Parker Frizzell, will you quote from the California Farm Bureau Federation? He assured nativist that Western business had white supremacy under control. He said quote we in California think we can handle that social problem. And then you quote and agribusinessman from Texas similarly saying quote if we cannot control the Mexicans and they would take this country. It would be better to keep them out, but we can and do control them. How did Growers amid this. Of extreme xenophobia and nativism that in so many cases including National Origins quota Zach overcame business opposition long skinny business proposition restriction. How did South Western Growers due to their demand for Mexican labor racialized Mexicans as distinctly domino table?

Docile and I think critically easily returnable to Mexico to appease nativists in it. And how did that instrumental racialization take shape on the ground in the southwest. This is a really important question. One of the issues that becomes vital in these debates about whether or not to allow Mexican immigrants into the country is there deportability and so the barber shows work that shift toward focusing on Mexican immigrants come here during this time. It could have been doing a lot of different things. For example, it could have been going to hospitals look for immigrants with Fallen ill and therefore were in violation of Public Health orders around immigration control. They had been could've been going to I'm social welfare organizations and looking for recent immigrants who were in need of food or a financial support that too would have been a violation.

Public charge it always could have done their work. They also could have just been out in the Borderlands Lucid looking for example of Chinese East India and South Asian immigrants. They really focus on Mexicans and that Focus concentrates this new political category of being deportable on the Mexican population. Is there the most vulnerable to deportation the most consumed a deportable and it's that the portability that is regarded as what enhances the value of Mexican workers because it decreases is presumed their ability to protest to the band higher wages and better working conditions because will simply call The Border Patrol and have you removed

That is really key when agribusiness in the west is looking out and I see a sea of immigration restrictions and from their perspective. They'd either invite African American workers West to come work in the fields of California, Arizona American Wesley. Also thought this about Puerto Ricans and as well or Mexican immigrants and when they looked at these two populations and they're making these calculations they articulate the problem with African-Americans is that we're citizens the permanent not removable whereas Mexican immigrants who had come to embody the portability could be easily removed. And this is a big part of why the agribusiness in from their perspective decided to focus upon recruiting Mexican worker. So here's the irony of these local white guys.

Rd2 extract to measure of dignity from these guys with and disparaging them the whole lives that actually generates new opportunities for the agribusiness Man by concentrated deportability on Mexican workers. So this is how this develops over time and Mexican workers are seen as being or is developing as a race apart from African American Asian immigrants and what Sookie is there deportability in that station is the deportability factor in this anxiety over the permanence of black presidents in the United States reflects is really pervasive white supremacist anti-slavery sentiment That animated everything from Antebellum colonization politics to to Teddy Roosevelt.

Extraordinary thing about the establishment of the United State in both enslavement and removal is the flexibility of white settler colonialism white supremacy issue capitalism over time that it is so deeply embedded in our DNA that regardless of what strategy is taken the strategy always bends toward black subjugation and Native and so these debates people always say what's Progressive or what's conservative they both Trend in the same direction, right so we can bring this right up to the current mom about how we created this beast called mass incarceration the left and the right or both Creation in it. It's because it's part of the long to Ray a black an addition experience is the United States that end in those directions. So this is a part of that story of the

Ability the flexibility of white supremacy over time in terms of the battles that are happening over Mexican immigration. Will there's about inclusion or exclusion. They're both predicated upon how we maintain white supremacy a follow-up question terms of the national origin. The construction of the racialization of Mexicans in 1929, as a stop to attempt to placate the nativists Lorelai and political forces that wanted to keep Mexican immigration from being restricted helped make illegal entry and re-entry Federal misdemeanors and felonies respectively and this is something that you're right about it and I think more depth in city of Prisons, but how did the criminalization of unauthorized migration emerge from what we've been discussing how Mexican migrants were distinctly racialized in the Heyday of nativist restriction. And how did that reshape the Borderlands in the border patrol book?

These are laws from from so long ago that I think until they came up as a subject to debate in the recent Democratic primary were unknown to many Americans but these are lies that we're not only used extensively under Bush and then Obama, but then also served as legal basis for Trump's notorious family separations the 26th, which is a federal misdemeanor of entering United States without authorization and the federal felony ever trained United States that authorization after deportation. The felony charge is the leading cause of prosecution that is leading sending people to federal prison today. It is a massive highly significant piece of legislation that was first drafted and developed and voted on and accepted in 1929. So let's talk about

Our current predicament and how it developed in the 1920s. Now after the passage of the National Origins Act of 1924, which was a whites-only immigration law with as you say, there's a dashing the stock door written into it that was demanded by agribusiness and and railroads in the west allow Mexican immigrants in particular to keep snowing in a most important flowing out of the United States cultural nationalist. The nativists. We're always unsatisfied with this deal. Although they made it in 1924 to get the other piece of legislation and the continued throughout the 1920s to press into Pradhan to push to get Mexican immigrants included on the list of either band immigrants or quote a place only certain number would be allowed to enter the country each year.

Throughout the 1920s agribusiness pushes back and says look, you locked out all the Chinese immigrants you blocked out the Japanese and I'm heading towards locking out Filipino. We launch the campaign of they didn't say up a genocide against indigenous populations here in California. We all want African-Americans to come because of their citizenship status and because of the right anti-blackness, all we've got is Mexican immigrants. We got to keep this door open. So they're fighting with each other throughout the 1920s and it's reaching a fever pitch by 1929 add in steps this congressman from South Carolina The Hills of South Carolina new Coleman Livingston bleach and working with us Secretary of Labor. They came up with a piece of legislation to find a compromise between these two battle insides of white supremacy and that compromise

We won't put a numerical limit on the number of Mexicans were allowed into the country every year instead will try to control the flow of Mexicans in the United States by forcing them to come through the ports of Entry where we can open and close the gates at women that will buy criminalizing any border crossings that happened between us ports of Entry. So the passage of the March or 1929 Immigration Act which first criminalize unauthorised entry into the United States is fundamentally a compromise between the dueling sides of white supremacy of the 1920s. And that is the law that is sending more people to federal prison today than any other piece of legislation. Now, of course drug Crime Boss right behind it right and let you know Jim Crow Drug War, which I so just

Fortunately impacted African Americans and what I call the police law of the 1920s are really the two Realms of federal law and law enforcement that are stealing our federal prisons today you right quote confronted by a new regime of US immigration control a regime increasingly dedicated to policing Mexicans Mexican labor migrants how to make new choices when they reached the northern edge of Mexico. They can either deliver themselves for inspection and be confronted with unaffordable fees humiliating exams in the possibility of exclusion, or they could try their luck at illicitly crossing the border and cautiously avoiding the Border Patrol.

How did authorized and unauthorized migration patterns and systems developed in tandem in NY given that there were no numerical instructions on Mexican migration into the us until the sixties and seventies. Why did so many Mexicans find it preferable to cross illegally people were I'm across the region used to informally crossing the border US citizens Mexican citizen. Everybody was this is a practice of the Borderlands. The notion of a Border Patrol was something that it was going to take the nation in these communities a long time to get to get used to write. So they're certainly just the culture and the position of the Borderlands where the border is really literally just a Line in the Sand line down the river. So does that issue?

A bit of work documenting how unaffordable the entry fees ahead taxes were for Mexican immigrants in comparison to what they were being paid again. And this regime, of course the ideas in Mexico where he invited us and European capitals to come into buying a given off the land and then to pay Parvati misery wages to Mexican worker Butthead fees were simply unaffordable. In addition to that. There were that you Millie dating questions for women in particular of the presumption that they may be crossing the border to engage in prostitution. There were the that's delousing bass. I'm washing people and gasoline cuz they're presumed to be dirty upon entrance. All of this was happening at the ports of Entry. So it's no surprise that people continue the informal Traditions across from the border without inspection between

Port of entry program brought millions of Mexican guest workers the US between 1942 and 1964 and obviously has to be at the center of any history of US immigration border patrol include you quote mid-century labor activists. Dr. Ernesto Galarza as saying quote is this indentured alien and almost perfect model of the economic man an input Factor stripped of political and social attributes that liberal democracy likes to ascribe to all human beings. Ideally is this Bracero the Prototype of the production of man of the future. What was the Bracero program and was Galarza basically right in the way that he described it live long enough. I will certainly write a biography of the ordinary intellectual and organizer from the mid-century too late 20th century was really connecting the dots between

Anti Blackness and the creation of the undocumented worker and the Bracero worker. So I just encourage people to Google Ernesto. Cullari learn a little bit more about this unsung labor hero and us and Mexican history between the early forties and the mid-1960s and brought about 2.5 million Mexican workers into United States on about 4 million contract to work on short-term contract. 6 months each and the way that they understood and organized was that Mexicans also a few folks from the Caribbean as well. But largely Mexicans would come in a single

Men from the countryside experience in agricultural labor and work United States for 6 months live out in the Hinterlands in the migrant camps and then go to go home right that you would only be bringing the braceros the process the arms and not the full body. Not the full human. So you could extract the labor from them and then send the humans back to Mexico. That was how the program was conceived of course full human beings came to the United States and you know, there's some really interesting work that's been coming out about the real Moses work on the defiant Bracero that showed up in the United States and refused to comply for example with heteronormative ideas about the Mexican family staying back in Mexico, and then Mexican workers just come up here and working.

I'm going home. They engaged in all kinds of pleasure and Leisure because they were full human beings. Of course that was the vision of the pecera program. It was violated constantly by individual braceros was also violated because all sorts of people who didn't fit. The norm of The Bracero also came North it in need of work young people youth came North and women in particular came North in search of work. And so you had two streams of Labor that were operating between United States and Mexico during this time. The so-called short-term Bracero worker and then the so-called undocumented worker which was certainly mail but increasingly female and young and so you have the structuring of two different labor flows during this this. The Mexican Government was not a passive party to the Bracero program the US in The Growers need of the Mexican Government The Mexican government use that leverage for very

Send that you described more virtuously, they push for higher wages and in 1948. They use the Mexican military and law enforcement to block migration into a new wage agreement was settled but in 1949, they also use Mexican troops you right to force aspiring migrants to labor on Mexican hot and Farms to make up for a labor shortage and Mexico created its own border patrol in 1953 APUSH the US to track to the Crackdown and unauthorised migrants and frightened to even pull back pull out of the entire or pull back from the entire Bracero Program. If a Crackdown wasn't forthcoming what is revealed that otherwise obscured when we analyze the Mexican Government active role in policing Mexican labor migration and interest a capital is not solely isolated in the United States to begin. So there are interest within Mexico that the Mexican Government of course.

Is responsible to represent now, what's interesting there which I don't go too much into depth in the book is that in fact when The Mexican government is representing the interests of an of business in Mexico that has the case of representing us investor interest. In fact, so it's the importance of the Growing Power of us investment around the world, but certainly in primarily in Mexico at the beginning of the twentieth century and all the way through to the present moment that it becomes difficult to understand whose interests are being represented by different governments. So when the government stands up to control the flow of migration funnel on migration to the Bracero program to limit The Exodus of Mexican workers to keep labor or South of the Border to pick cotton to to mine and do other labor that it has

Some local interest but also is reflective of us investors in Mexico who are invested in La Laguna area. Just south of the border of Baja, California. So there's a level of complexity there about whose interests are being represented by the separate nation states.

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Mexican officials also worked with the US to transport deportees deeper and deeper into Mexico's interior in the 1950s us even you ship that transported bananas from Mexico to South Texas to bring 2000 deportees a month back south into Mexico to Veracruz in Tampico. How did this by national enforcement system function? What role did it play in the groundwork for what we see today with countries from Mexico South and Central America all over the place being instrumentalize as proxy u.s. Immigration enforcement agents extending the Border ever outward. Yeah. This is a really important history. So beginning in the fifties and particular the United States and Mexican governments work together to deport Mexican Nationals down into the interior of Mexico. They did this by boat by Train by truck variety of methods and the interest there of the Mexican Government.

Was to reduce the number of people who were crossing into United States outside of the boundaries of The Bracero program. So the flow of migrants they can slow it down with laborers needed in Mexico. They can speed it up when they needed an outlet for unemployed or underemployed folks so that as the national government wanted to control that slow there is certainly a precedent there for what we've been seeing in the last maybe 10-20 years about for example United States Investments and fly Mexico, which is a part of the offered billions of dollars to Mexico to to beef up its border enforcement along its Southern border.

So these are all contemporary practices that have very deep roots. And I guess I would just track it back to as we were just discussing there are local national interests of Mexico's participation in the program is also the profound power of US Capitol across borders that is influencing these kinds of practices and policies and decisions and collaborations. Overtime. One of the most remarkable things about the border is that sort of Thieves its legitimacy by presenting itself as this this line is boundary between two countries when in fact like you were just discussing it expands ever outward from the Imperial Center, but then also in word into the Metropol and you write that from the get-go the border patrol with policing not just La Linea, but this expansive Borderlands territory quote border patrol officers in the texas-mexico Border Lands.

Bradley police mejicano Mobility instead of enforcing the political boundary between the United States and Mexico that definitely true today. So what did the border patrol conceive of is the territory under its jurisdiction and how did that lay the groundwork for this absolutely massive territorial scope and scale of border patrol operations today that suggest so many people to a border police state even when they're just traveling between two domestic locations. And now with the creation of of DHS after 9/11 border patrol as part of what under Trump has been exposed as a federal police force hiding in plain sight.

Brothers and sisters in Portland. I say welcome to the Borderlands. This is how we have been released for four decades and look forward to building with you all. We are engaging these campaigns in about defunding police and abolish ice to strip away. The carceral state that has been really damaging so many of our communities in terms of how we got here the border patrol from very early on was less focused on policing the political boundaries between the United States and Mexico the United States and Canada and more explicitly focused on policing the people presumed to be undocumented or non belonging within the United States and that shifted

Quickly and dramatically to the southern border and to focusing on Mexican immigrants of the reasons we discussed before by the mid-1940s early 1950s the US border patrol real rather.

Casual and formally decided that a person was in the process of getting to their point of arrival within the United States.

Within 100 miles of the border. So it claimed as its jurisdiction anywhere between the political boundary and 100 miles away from it and so long as somebody was moving within that zone. They were subject to border patrol Force overtime that's become accepted as the common practice. And so at this point 100 miles from any land or Sea border is the border patrol jurisdiction, which is where I'm guessing the majority solid majority of my listeners live chat about two-thirds of the people who live in United States live within that 100 mile border Zone. Most of our major cities are within that zone. So Los Angeles San Francisco New York Detroit, I believe the entire State of Florida or always been that that sucks. Sorry no Fourth Amendment.

Point right so so long as the border patrol is engaging immigration law enforcement Fourth Amendment rights are restricted. They're not till they wiped away, but they're restricted. So we all live on me about all a good number of us live within the jurisdiction and which are 4th amendment rights protections against unreasonable search and seizure have caveat in the area of immigration law enforcement. Now, what's the border patrol use as it's Reasonable Suspicion to pull somebody over for an immigration violation or perceived immigration violation, which we know is deeply racialized opens up the gate to all kinds of federal law enforcement because they're across deputize in a variety of ways. So this is a very important issue for all of us to consider him about the power of the border patrol to engage in every day policing in the Borderlands and you know, like I say,

Welcome folks you all are living in the Borderlands 2 and says is part of our struggle from New York to LA to Florida and elsewhere had a number of checkpoints across the Southwest a lot of what border patrol agent Staffing. These things are doing is arresting Americans in transit from one domestic location to another for weed not picking not even picking up undocumented immigrants.

Yeah, man, this is

UCLA with a million-dollar fidget project in collaboration with the ACLU which looks at a good number of years of recent border patrol data and what do they discuss why they pulled over people who were driving or walking in the Borderlands areas and not on the border Borderlands area and time after time it's brown people Mexicans and Central Americans who raised suspicion because they either booked the border patrol officer in the eye or they didn't look the board floss or not because they switch lanes to faster. They switched Lanes to slow. Right? So no logic to what what what created Reasonable Suspicion other than the fact that the through line is that all the people they pulled over were Latin X.

Write disproportionately mail and had very little money on them. So this is sort of the data set that we have tells us how much money people have in their pocket. So that is consistent with history that was constructed overtime. This notion that the undocumented is a Latin X immigrant or person and the notion that Latin X people within the United States of suspect of being undocumented when I was reporting a story in 2015. I see the official told me on the condition of anonymity that race and nationality could be factors just not the only factor and enforcement according to their internal rules Court ruled in 1974. Brignoni-ponce said that race is a legitimate factor in the consideration of immigration stops. And when I say raise I mean quote

2nd appearance legitimate factor to consider an immigration law enforcement. So if you are of quote Mexican appearance, if you are within a hundred miles of the border and you happened to be walking away from the border, right? So if you're not lying you're walking due east or if you're in El Paso and ignore, these are this is a constellation of factors that could make you legitimately suspect for immigration law enforcement and race is one of those factors. That's not on the down-low. That is the United States Supreme Court stating that so this is what it is really interesting we go back to Arizona they talked about was it SB 1070 and they did that by saying we're only going to do what's constitutional and everyone presume that racial profiling was not constitutional. Right? Well the US Supreme Court has already weighed in on that when it comes immigration law enforcement saying that you can use quote X could have parents as a legitimate fat.

And immigration law enforcement. The piece that they weren't telling everybody for another piece that do we get that much attention was at the Obama administration's attack when sb1070 was that Arizona was infringing on the federal government's prerogative to do immigration enforcement in that indeed. The federal government was already using local police officers law enforcement all over the country as a front door to the deportation pipeline. Yes, absolutely an important part of this prehistory. They are booked so powerfully tells today's border security politics begins with this remarkable Rancher and farmer Rebellion against the border patrol in the late 40s and early 50s you right quote. They had built Empires based upon controlling land water and the mobility of Mexican migrant workers, but the Region's agribusiness Elite was losing its grip

Beginning during World War II the officers of the border patrol directly answer to supervisors outside of the Borderlands and operated according to a complicated politics of migration control. The extended as far north is Washington DC and as far south is Mexico City Farmers & ranchers in South Texas rebelled against their loss of influence over migration control and fought to return the border patrols with local routes in the process. They emerged is unexpected critics. The patrols racialized focus upon policing persons of Mexican origin in managing this Rebellion you right and this is it is remarkable book in this is perhaps the most remarkable part of it is that the infamous deportation campaign of that era was actually about managing this Rebellion explain the conventional story about the Eisenhower era Mass deportation campaign. What what you discovered was actually happening behind commissioner Joseph swing.

Media spectacle in what the new settlement was over policing the labor Supply that took shape as a result on as and I apologize for my language you are but this is the historical language operation wetback of 1954 is this that there was a surge of undocumented Mexican migration and therefore President Eisenhower and the head of the ins General swing organized something called operation went back an aggressive immigration law enforcement campaign to go out Deport all the Mexicans and then I'm still up the Border.

And so part of that prevailing narrative is that the border patrol deported over 1 million people during the summer of 1954 and that that somehow did away with the crisis of undocumented immigration and following that surge immigration law enforcement the border crossing stopped. The problem was solved and we could move forward. So there's a couple layers this narrative one that law enforcement works.

Which it doesn't mean we'll get to that in a second and at the crisis was about Mexican immigrants. That wasn't what was happening at. All. Right, the crisis was about these farmers and agribusiness men largely in Texas, but across the Southwest who refusing to use the Bracero program and continuing to hire Mexican workers outside of its purview as undocumented laborers. They simply didn't want to have to deal with the requirements of The Bracero Program such as no provide health insurance to their employees abiding by a minimum wage having inspectors come in and check the conditions of work and want none of that. So they continue to hire people outside of the boundaries of The Bracero program and you have these two nation-states United States and Mexico who said no,

This is the program that we have established to facilitate the flow of Mexican workers in and importantly out of the country and we expect you to utilize it so there was an enormous tension building between the border patrol and the farmer's Inn in Texas operation wetback really is is a campaign to force the farmers in South Texas to comply with using the percent of a program. They do that to the bodies in the lives of Mexican workers were the one to be the target of a aggressive immigration law enforcement campaign, of course the barbershop because of who they really speaking to is this farmers in South Texas. They begin the campaign in California as a demonstration as a threat as a warning to South Texas to say look we're going to come through we're going to rain restaurants. We're going to raid Parks we're going to raid neighborhoods around rager farms, and we're going to sweep up everybody and we're going to get them out.

So we're coming we demonstrate to the power of what we can do here in California. We're coming to South Texas to clean out your workers. They might say and so they they went to South Texas the worst 12 South Texas before they began to raise and we got to negotiate with Farmers. Some complied. Some did not the raids followed does the farmer farmer's to comply and the other piece here is that they told the story that they deported over a million people that summer that's just a load of malarkey. Let's say a commonly provided load of malarkey that I have. I think I heard repeatedly.

Well, here's the other piece of it is Operation wetback in 1954 was so terrifying and traumatic for Mexican and Mexican-American families that the notion that they deported over a million people felt very real right when you're hearing and you're seeing threats in the Press everyday when you're seeing these calculated choreograph raids that are supposed to induce Terror just two decades after this match repatriation campaign of the early Great Depression feels real right and so many of us have told this tale that there was an over 1 million on deportations, but when you get into the orbitals archives and Records, it's clear that they are there fudging the numbers are cooking the books left and right. I don't remember the number. Maybe you've got in front of you from the book, but they actually forcibly removed IE deported far fewer.

Are people then they announced in the press and this is important because after that summer what happens is not a reduction in the number people of cry right to law enforcement come in swoop down and dissuade people from crossing the border what happens if they demobilize all of their aggressive task force has their planes the trains are Automobiles and Baisley stop enforcing immigration law. So the flow of people Remains the Same it's simply the actions and activities of the border patrol that shift between 1954 and 1955 that leads to a dramatic drop-off in the number of people who are being arrested and say apprehended and deported. So the point there for me is that one of the lessons that we thought we got out of him out of operation wetback of 1954, and this is a lesson that our current president thinks is true.

Is that law enforcement worked right that there was a crisis of people who are crossing the border aggressive immigration law enforcement came in people. Stop Crossing before that is not at all what happened? It was all smoke and mirrors which again would be in tune with this current president that led to the drop-off between the so-called 1 million deportations. The summer of 1954 was never happened and the far fewer deportations that happened the year after once they won the compliance of the farmers in South Texas. They were done aggressively enforcing immigration law. You got this weird. Dynamic where you had white agribusiness been accusing the border patrol of barbarity against Mexican workers and then labor activist accusing The Growers of presiding over monstrous slavery-like conditions. Well, let's let me step back a second. So the 1920s in the 1930s is what it is. Where the border patrol is effectively a local law enforcement agency.

Read across the Borderlands the authority of the federal government World War II changes that and the shift of the mortgage phone immigration control from the Department of Labor into the Department of Justice the recruitment of new officers from across the country and nothing about the Borderlands the development of new National Training Systems. It's always creates a different border patrol. It still says Roots right solutely got its roots which carry forward and you have these new officers were not as connected to local farmers. So whereas in the twenties and thirties these local Law Enforcement Officers could one way to extract Powers. Yes by departing somebody's workers, but also by coming in threatens just want to not doing it right. So you you gain access to the the power broker is new officers to come in in the forties in the fifties don't have those relationships aren't working out.

Those personal politics that have been brewing over time and instead they're just coming in and they're following them the legacy of the border patrol in targeting Mexican. They do so much more not a silly aggressively that wouldn't be the station. But without regard for the interest of the local landholders and agribusiness and this is what rankles the agribusiness man is, not so much that their workers are being deported because in the past they had utilized the portability as one more pressure point against Mexican workers, but now you had to work till coming in after work and totally disregarding any arguments from agribusiness about hey, can you come back next week? Maybe let us finish them the Harvest right now and it's that tension that develops in the 1940s and 1950s that leads agribusinessman to say.

at the border patrol is an abusive organization to see if they're advocating on behalf of the people who work in on their farms and they're in their Industries and that tension really explodes into the outbreak of what is now known as operation wetback 1954, which we often think of as a campaign against Mexican immigrants, which it certainly was it was also a campaign against agribusiness to get tell them to get in line with the Bracero program and to process their workers through this Federal bilateral program and that smoking mirrors that we see under swing really seems to be a template for a certain performance of of border security that meets a Confluence of Contra Victory interest, but only really provisionally that's true when we look at the spectacle of border security with with operation Hold the Line in 1993 robot in El Paso and which then which creates this kind of

Eureka moment of you know, there's never been political will to enforce the Border while and now so as to raise the congressman to be but at the time the first Hispanic border patrol sector Chief this the sense that you done what was deemed impossible and now the idea was security works or even back to Africa in 86 or the secure fence Act of 2006, but it never really works as advertised it maybe works for a few years. We saw in the late 90s when the early 90s nativist explosion for a briefly subsided. How does this Dynamic from the early 1950s to the present play out where there's this performance and border security that provisionally works and then failed what happens when those contradictions of border security politics keep hiding?

Is the performance of non-violence resulting in death? Right? So one of the things that happens after World War II is a questioning of the direct physical brutality of older boruto officers are the guys who would engage in Vengeance campaigns who would shoot immigrants across the border who would be folks for speaking out of turn for Texas Ranger types.

Or your everyday local police South Texas, types. They were new officers after who looked sideways at those kinds of activities. The world also looks sideways at those kinds of activities as we were heading into the civil rights movement. And so they develop they didn't put violence to bed thinking develop new forms of violence. And one of the things that they did is they actually dug up the fences from several of the internment camps of World War II.

And took those fences down to us Mexico border and shove them into the sand to create a new kind of boundary that would force. My wife wants to cross deep out in the desert that what that does is that migrants are no longer Crossing through small towns and cities on the border such as El Paso or San Diego or any of the other small towns.

And which is where they get these concentrate confrontations with the border patrol and everybody with witness this violence and it pushes them out into the desert where the bar which hole in the 1940s. When I first started doing this understood that they would be sending people sending migrants to their deaths to dehydration in the in the desert. This is what operation Hold the Line operation gatekeeper double down on in the 1990s was this displacement of violence out of the local communities where people can see it and out into the Hinterlands out into the desert or the number of people who are trying to cross and died in that process Skyrock is him.

Can you draw a line from the border security poor performances of the early 1950s through another round of displacement in the early 1990s in California through Arizona becoming the epicenter of nativist politics in this country to to Donald Trump. What does the the unrealizable fantasy or promise of border security? How does that structure the sort of pervasive psychosis that increasingly seems to envelop u.s. Politics white supremacy to endure without having to have his fingerprints on the bodies of people who are dying. So there's absolutely a through line between the post-world War II. Which we still live in right?

And it's need to displace the violence has of white supremacy to conceal violence's is exactly what was happening in the 1940s has been revamped and reworked multiple times over over the decades and this frenzy about creating border fences isn't about security. We all know that no fence for the last hundred years has ever worked pisiform of border control or border enforcement all it has ever done is driven people to take more dangerous methods and measures to be able to cross the border in search of work in search of family in pursuit of a dream and there's too much evidence that all these border fences have ever done.

Is several fingers harm the environment and drive people out into the desert to die to suffer. And so I find it incredulous that anyone today would make the argument that there's any point to these fences other than just that about displacing concealing masking the violence of guess the state with particular the white supremacist State you write the border patrol retired old fashioned racist language for Mexican migrants, not so much because it was racist but rather that increasingly in the latter half of the 20th century because it frame the object of Border enforcement as a sympathetic maybe prophetic Mexican Farm labor, and they supplanted that racist terminology with terms like Criminal Alien in Border violator how and why did the populations that border patrol targeted?

Become increasingly increasingly criminalized after the early 50s.

Well, this is where it's important to understand that the history of American Immigration control is the history of the carceral state. So it's almost a line that at the same moment that were beginning to talk in new terms about social threats with me United States is being criminal threats that that's happening along the border and in relationship to Mexican immigrants in particular during this time. So the logic of control the articulation of control shifts in the forties and fifties into the six days away from an understanding of Mexican undocumented immigrants as being laborers who just you need to be managed to so-called criminals who need more aggressive forms of management within the rise of the carceral state writ large that this was happening.

Cross the country and in relationship to different communities that we were stitching together a new logic of social control. And of course that's what's happening on the border as well. And that's part and parcel of the shift toward the so-called description of the crisis as it is a crisis around crime and the so-called Criminal Alien overnight and you can see it in the memos that we're going to stop calling people undocumented workers, right? We're going to begin calling them criminal aliens because that better reflects our understanding of the the current crisis, but it also could generate a stronger response from the broader public.

And you right at the drug war played a key role in transforming the border patrol during this. Border patrol agents were mandated to and also enforce Customs laws. It expanded its mission to police what increasingly became both the top domestic and international political Priority One that really collapse the DeMent the distinction between the domestic and international at the border and in the Borderlands while all the while you write making the agents task even more quixotic and the people they pursued all the more demonized the starts really early right with the border patrol establishing the criminal immoral and narcotics program in 1956.

You write that the new Mission quote simultaneously created an increasingly dangerous and stressful work site for border patrol officers and provided a new logic of impunity that justified even the most egregious acts of violence committed by border patrol officers. How did the long-standing cynicism among agents that you described explode into the Fantastic Violence by the 1970s and 80s in a way that sort of reverses the shift that you describe taking place between the original generation of border patrol agents to the that the second generation where the violence was more sublimated into the landscape. What what role did the drug war play in making this explicit rampant abuse explode the way it did.

What all violence needs a logic right? And so what was happening in the forties is there was a mismatch between the old logic of sort of what you might call Potbelly white supremacy saying, well, they're just dirty Mexicans. That's why we beat the shit out of them that was not sustainable anymore after as we move into the civil rights movement. And so you needed a new logic of that violence and the fences are a part of it is simply displacing the violence out where we're not doing. This is not us. And then also the rise of the War on Drugs becomes a new logic as creating that you suggest to demonizing people creating a lot about why the violence is appropriate against this population. So that's what the War on Drugs does for immigration control. Is it a legitimate new forms of aggressive violence against immigrant bodies Mexican immigrant bodies in particular

Criminalization of Mexicans with the imposition of tight immigration restrictions on illegal migration first in 1965 and then more stringently in 1976. Does that intensify to legalization of Mexicans that play a role in Indian creasing way in which Mexican migration is forced into illegal Pathways play a role in the deepening violence in the 70s and 80s.

Well, I mean, of course a lot of people didn't work on the Immigration Act of 1965 and the way that it put the first numerical caps on. The number of Mexican immigrants are allowed to enter the United States every year and that that cap was Far Below. The number of people who were at that time already Crossing lawfully into the United States. So it was a setup and a year after the Bracero program was terminated at that amid all of the massive civil rights legislation Civil Rights Act in the Voting Rights Act that you have the structuring of the rise of the end documented Mexican population. So, you know, it was baked in that we were going to have this escalation in search of undocumented immigration the post 1965 really the post 1967-68

World when that law becomes implemented and we have the same time the formulation of a new logic about why it's so important to aggressively police this community of Border crossers. So that's certainly the War on Drugs. It's the criminalization of the character of the undocumented immigrant as well. It's the cross tabulations you say a border patrol agents as DEA agent. So it's really unclear. What work they're doing out there in the Borderlands all this is happening at the same time. And so yes, it was a setup that the The Surge of undocumented immigration and the post 1965 World would be culturally and politically and legally criminalized.

And that the violence during this. That I read about researching my own book was just constant pervasive surreal one case the Border. I don't recall the Year by think of the 1980s. Where Patrol sent an undercover agent to investigate reports of abuse at a California highway checkpoint and they were beaten severely.

I didn't know that story but it doesn't surprise me. I mean like I came to this work cuz I grew up on the border in the 80s and early 90s and this kind of brutality was mundane and nobody really questioned it the way in which border patrol would be a rap people over their heads with their batons by the side of the road and people just keep on driving by those are those are the illegals right that was one of the logic of that the day and I shouldn't say nobody protested. Of course, the organizers were protesting but the prevailing logic made sense enter the United States in violation of

Our rules are border violators are criminals and they deserve this aggressive law enforcement response. So for me as a child growing up and lay witness all that violence and being blessed to come from a family that question that violence question that logic question the notion that any human being could be illegal and understood that that was a structure in place that needed to be dismantled it really as I ugly we talked about earlier. It was the trauma of growing up in the Borderlands and witnessing this violence that that drove me to do the work that I've been doing for the last 20 years on racial violence in the state border policing and the rise of mass incarceration all of this.

You right quote chronicling the border patrols rise in the u.s. Mexico Borderlands the matter of policing and modern America revealed how to pass a Mexican brown and black Americans cross in the carceral era. My question is what is obscured when we don't include the border patrol in our history of American policing in our analysis of it and in our analysis of the racialized political economy of the carceral state as a whole and then what do we learn including about how to dismantle it when we do included leave the border patrol out we leave out probably what's the second largest police force in the country had the conversation we leave out the

Massive jurisdiction of surveillance that the border patrol operates within and conducts. So I guess I'll talk about the 100 mile border Zone, but I'm just talkin also got all of the stops observations the question the fear that they have brought along with them. We miss the story of immigrant detention and deportation as Prophecies of human caging and forced removal just because of US Supreme Court said that those are apprehensions and civil infractions rather than crimes and arrest and imprisonment doesn't mean it's not so right. The experience of apprehension is the experience of a rasp experience at the tension is experience of imprisonment. The experience of deportation is experiment. The punishment and so we've allowed the states definition.

This set of practices as non-criminal to determine our analysis of the crisis. Now that certainly has changed in the last ten and fifteen years that the rise of the study of crimmigration on organizing on the ground people young people who are experiencing both mass incarceration Mass deportation have really led the thinking on how these two regimes intersect and really support one another so moving forward. I think it's absolutely critical to understand really good dexterity and diversity of operation of the carceral state has to include an analysis of immigration control with also obviously going to have to include an analysis of the distinctions of policing between reservations and so-called US cities right and those Bordertown. So there's always different jurisdictions that work in the carceral state and weave

One of these thinking about all of them and immigration control is particularly massive and by allowing the states definition of immigration control is being an administrative act as opposed to crime and punishment will allow them to Vale off one of the largest sectors the carceral state, of course, it helps us to when we unveil it would bring the story together. It allows us to better, see how our various communities black and brown in this case are so deeply impacted by this regime. Well Kelly Lytle Hernandez. Thank you very much.

Thank you. I was really wonderful talking to you.

Kelly Lytle Hernandez is a professor of History African-American studies in urban planning at UCLA the author of Migra in city of inmates and also the director and a principal investigator for million-dollar hoods, the university-based community-driven project that match the physical and human costume mass incarceration in Los Angeles. Thank you for listening to the dick from Jacobin magazine as marks. Once said after noting that the police did you get Sherry in the administration are not deputies of Civil Society itself, which manages its own general interest in and threw them rather their office holders of the state whose purpose is to manage the state in opposition to Civil Society what other podcast of the world in various ways are point is to change it. We're closing new episodes every week. The dick was produced by Alex Lewis music by Jeffrey Brodsky our Communications coordinator.

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